Ep 168: Having Race Conversations

Matthew R Kay, author of Not Light, But Fire, shares his vast
wealth of knowledge on how to have productive discussions about
race. As an educator and speaker, Matthew is well-versed in what
to avoid and what to move toward in conversations.


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Full show notes
You know you have to discuss race....but you’re not sure where to
start. With everything going on in the news and centuries of
history to cover, there’s quite a bit to talk about. You might
feel like you’re unauthorized or just woefully unprepared. What
if you say the wrong thing, or your teen asks a question you
don’t know the answer to? With all the uncertainty, it can be
tempting to just skip the topic of race altogether.



But if we don’t encourage kids to think critically about racism,
they may grow up ignorant to prejudice in their community. They
might not be able to identify microaggressions, or might not
think about a certain language before they use it. Plus, with all
the information floating around on social media these days, kids
might just learn about race from unreliable sources when they
could be having a productive conversation about it with a trusted
parent!



To help us crack the code to race conversations with teens, we’re
sitting down with Matthew R. Kay, author of Not Light But Fire:
How to Lead Meaningful Race Conversations in the Classroom.
Matthew’s one of the founding English teachers at the Science
Leadership Academy in Philadelphia, as well as the founder of a
Philly slam poetry league! As a teacher, he’s had countless
conversations about race in his classroom–leading him to learn
what works and what doesn’t.



Matthew and I are discussing how you can create a safe space for
kids to open up about intense issues like race. Plus, we’re
talking about how you can keep the conversation in check so it
doesn’t go off the rails, even when you and your teen have some
differences of opinion.



Creating a Space for Talks About Race


When it’s time to get into a tricky topic, it’s pretty easy to
declare your home to be a safe space for teens to open up. But
talk is cheap! If you really want to make teens feel comfortable
being vulnerable, you’ve got to go beyond just your words and
provide a safe space with your actions, says Matthew. 



One of the most important steps to creating a comfortable
environment is making sure everyone feels listened to. In our
interview, Matthew explains how teens often come to him saying
they feel like adults just don’t listen! With our endlessly busy
lives full of errands, work meetings and carpools, it can be hard
to find the time to really listen to what teens have to say. But
if we really want teens to feel comfortable sitting down with us
to discuss race or other heavy topics, we’ve got to put in the
work to let them know we’re really listening, says Matthew.



But what makes a good listener? Matthew and I dive into the art
of listening in the episode. Although we might think we are just
naturally endowed with our listening skills, there are actually
concrete steps we can take to become better at receiving and
digesting information. Matthew encourages parents to police their
own voice, meaning making sure that in a discussion between you
and your kids, you’re not the only one talking! 



In Matthew’s classroom, creating rich relationships between the
students is a priority–and one of the ways he ensures that
everyone feels comfortable sharing. It’s hard to be vulnerable
with somebody you don’t know! That’s why he sets structures in
place to make sure kids really get to know each other before they
dive into complicated discussions or sensitive topics. As a
parent, you might want to practice a similar strategy, he says.
By building that relationship beforehand, you can create a safe
space and allow teens to feel that they can tell you anything.



In the episode, Matthew and I discuss ways you can make teens
feel comfortable when it is time to actually have that serious
talk. It can be helpful to ensure that you and your teen are
sitting or standing at the same eye level, Matthew explains. This
creates an equitable balance of power between the two of you, and
prevents your teen from feeling as though you’re passing
judgement on them! Matthew also shares why you shouldn’t ask kids
to “sit down” before diving into the discussion in the episode.



Once you feel you’ve created the comfortable space teens need,
having the conversation is another tricky task entirely! But with
some tips from Matthew, you can go into the conversation feeling
confident.



Conducting a Race Conversation


It’s easy for things to get heated when talking about
race–especially if you and your teen have differences of opinion.
But if the two of you can keep the discussion more scholarly and
less emotional, Matthew says the two of you can learn from one
another. In his classroom, he tries to keep these kinds of talks
more research and inquiry based, instead of just having kids
blurt out opinions. This helps teens get into more productive and
deliberate discussion instead of just throwing around baseless
claims.


Matt also really encourages sequential discussion, meaning that
every talk you have with your teen builds on the last. This gives
teens (and parents) time in between to think critically about
these nuanced topics. It allows them to fabricate sophisticated
perspectives instead of coming to simple conclusions! Matthew
believes that one of the biggest issues with our school system’s
approach to education about race is this lack of sequentiality.
We throw kids disconnected discussions about Martin Luther King
or police brutality, but don’t give them the tools to make a
timeline!



When starting up a talk about race, Matthew emphasizes really
paying attention to the prompt you choose to spark the
discussion. If you ask kids a complex question that requires them
to provide examples to prove their point, they’ll be forced to
look past black and white answers. Plus, if you can push them to
examine the other side’s viewpoint and perspective, you might
just find that they’re able to consider the layers of complexity
that lay behind issues of race, says Matthew.



This is a helpful technique that helps us avoid the common
tendency to shift things into an “I’m right, you’re wrong”
argument, Matthew explains. Too often, parents and teens both
fall into a pattern of trying to convince the other to believe in
their own point, making it into a win or lose situation, when it
shouldn’t be! In the episode, Matthew doles out some tips to keep
you from falling into this pattern.



In the Episode…


I’m so grateful that I was able to sit down with Matthew today to
get some tips on having conversations about race. It’s something
so many of us are eager to do, but find ourselves struggling with
just how to do it. On top of the topics discussed above, we also
talk about:


What “house talk” is and how to use it

How you can give more meaningful compliments

Why you shouldn’t rush through conversions about race

How to get quiet kids to speak up

Why we should talk about “The Jefferson Dismissal” 



If you enjoyed listening to this episode, there’s more great
stuff from Matthew on notlight.com, including articles,
information about his book and ways you can contact him
directly....