BonusEp. 08 - Tamar Avishai interviews Dar Williams, Singer-Songwriter

Dar Williams has been described by The New Yorker as “one of
America’s very best singer-songwriters,” but to thirteen-year-old
Tamar she was, quite simply, a personal hero: a songwriter whose
poetry, poignancy, and humor could capture at once the authentic
voices of an inner child, a searching young adult, and a wizened
sage. We met in person in 2013 at Dar’s songwriting retreat, and
our friendship has been evolving ever since, exploring together the
rigors of writing and storytelling through sound and song, and what
it means to dip in and out of a creative space as a way of simply
getting through the day. Dar has recently published a book about
songwriting that is chock full of philosophical wisdom and
applicable nuggets, many of which borne from a decade of retreats.
We sat down together to talk about songwriting, art museums, the
art of writing songs about art, and specifically her evocative,
ambivalent "Mark Rothko Song," which tackles it all head-on. [2:05]
Dar’s relationship with museums and creating a space for poetic
thinking. [8:40] Specific museums, exhibitions, paintings that have
inspired Dar’s songs: Dia, “Made in America,” the Fogg. [11:45]
Writing Mark Rothko Song. Where did Dar go? Where did Dar really
go? [14:45] The difficulties inherent in writing about art. What
prompted the writing of this song? Dar’s first encounter with
Rothko’s “Untitled (Blue Green)” and the first verse. [20:15]
Diving into the prosody of the song, how the music and lyrics
support the voice of the song: finger picking, major to minor,
chord to chord, key to key, mood to mood. [27:41] Return to the
lyrics and narrative. The way that Rothko encourages people to make
subjective associations…but then comes the foil of the second
verse, creating the contrast between subjective and objective.
[33:52] The song’s dueling (or complementary?) aha moments in the
bridge and final verse. People both love Rothko and struggle to
connect to him. Following the narrator’s journey as she wrestles
with seeing something versus knowing something. [45:47]
Appreciating an honest song about art viewing that doesn’t flatten
the characters. Reflecting on the elements of the song that hold up
as Dar has gotten older. [51:19] The similarities between art
museums and songwriting retreats: opening up, engaging poetic
thinking. [55:28] Also the hazards of living in a space of poetic
thinking, especially as a parent. The necessary objectivity of the
caretaking space. [1:02:20] The “Five Things” Rule, and whether
Mark Rothko might just be the exception that proves the rule. Tamar
meets her Rothko and gives hope to kind pedestrians everywhere.
[1:09:14] Mark Rothko Song in full. Music Used: Dar Williams, “When
I Was A Boy”; “Mark Rothko Song” (live); “The Beauty Of The Rain”;
“Mark Rothko Song” (album version) Episode Webpage:
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