Episode 269: Marianne Bellotti & Greg Wilson on 10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job

Guests Marianne Bellotti | Greg Wilson Panelist Richard Littauer
Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks
with Marianne Bellotti, author of *Kill It with Fire, *and Greg
Wilson, co-founder of the Carpentries, about what happens to your
code when you leave your job and how to make sure it survives. They
discuss their new paper, "10 quick tips for making your software
outlive your job (https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.06484)," and share
practical strategies for protecting, documenting, and sustaining
code in open source, research, and civil service environments.
Whether you're preparing for a job change or want to future-proof
your work, this conversation offers real-world advice for
developers and researchers alike. Hit the download button now!
[00:03:04] Greg and Marianne talk about challenges in code
sustainability. [00:05:46] Greg speaks about how scientists often
prototype rather than build production quality code. [00:09:48] We
start with Step 1 in the paper: “Consider your threat mode.” Greg
explains the different plans needed for individual vs. systematic
departures, Marianne speaks about the importance of understanding
code lifecycle-some code has a “fruit fly” lifespan others a
“tortoise” one, and Richard adds to think about reframe threat
modeling around future usefulness. [00:15:53] There’s a discussion
on Step 2: “Get sign-off on releasing it publicly.” [00:21:30] Greg
discusses Step 3: “Choose an open license” and emphasizes to stick
to well-known licenses (MIT, BSD), don’t write your own, and he
shares a funny story. [00:25:29] Richard talks about Step 4: “Put
your code somewhere safe” and shares to upload code to GitHub,
Codeberg, OSF, Zenodo, etc. Greg suggest peer-to-peer methods like
torrents could help long-term preservation and Marianne emphasizes
the importance of verified identities when sharing. [00:29:21]
Marianne introduces Step 5: “Document your code.” Greg shares that
most documentation goes unread and LLMs could help mine useful
documentation from conversation records and Marianne emphasizes to
focus on “how to run it” first and tests are a part of your
documentation. [00:35:17] Step 6: “Make your code reproducible.”
Greg and Marianne discuss using tools like Docker, uv for Python
lockfiles, etc., for dependency management. [00:36:23] Step 7:
“Make your code citable” and Step 8: “Encourage community
adoption.” Richard mentions to add a CITATION.cff file so others
can cite your code and Greg mentions a great book he read that
changed the way he viewed this called, Marketing for Scientists, by
Marc Kuchner. [00:38:49] Step 9: “Write a succession or sunsetting
plan.” Marianne shares to define success and failure criteria for
projects explicitly. [00:40:36] Step 10: “Talk about what you’re
doing.” Greg emphasizes to celebrate and grieve project endings
properly and Richard encourages listeners to check out the paper,
read it, and if you see something missing you can contribute back.
[00:43:12] Fnal thoughts from Greg and Marianne: Organize
collectively to protect science and code sustainability and find
your team. Quotes [00:12:10] “Weapons begin as toys.” [00:14:09]
“All code is throwaway code.” [00:27:34] “Sooner or later every
library burns.” [00:29:44] “Most documentation is never read by
anybody because it’s not answering the questions that you actually
have.” [00:41:05] “Take some time to celebrate and to grieve.”
Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org
(mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org
(mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse
(https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon
(https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky
(https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS
LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open
Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
(https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials
(https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Marianne Bellotti
(Medium) (https://bellmar.medium.com/) Marianne Bellotti LinkedIn
(https://www.linkedin.com/in/bellmar/) Greg Wilson GitHub
(https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca)
Greg Wilson LinkedIn
(https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca)
“10 Quick tips for making your code last beyond your current job”
(draft)
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jk0R8VL8lq1-LIbW9D5qwCkvxfXEobP0-RqSYF-4Io4/edit#heading=h.2ijt9lezevm3)
Kill It With Fire by Marianne Bellotti
(https://nostarch.com/kill-it-fire) Marketing for Scientists: How
to Shine in Tough Times by Marc J. Kuchner
(https://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Scientists-Shine-Tough-Times/dp/1597269948)
Codeberg (https://codeberg.org/) Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/) OSF
(https://osf.io/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer
(https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree
Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr
Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests:
Greg Wilson and Marianne Bellotti.