Episode 241: Tracy Hinds & Ashley Williams on Open Source Funding and Inequities

Guests Tracy Hinds | Ashley Williams Panelist Richard Littauer Show
Notes On today’s episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is
joined by guests, Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams, to discuss the
structural inequities and funding issues in open source. The
episode delves deep into the misaligned incentives in the open
source community, how regulatory and policy awareness is growing,
and the potential for government regulations to create
opportunities for open source maintainers. The conversation also
covers the roles of various open source foundations, the impact of
large corporations, and the need for more effective advocacy and
compensation avenues for contributors. Tracy and Ashley announce
their involvement in a working group focused on the European CRA
legislation, aiming to bridge gaps between maintainers and
policymakers. Press download now! [00:02:22] Ashley responds to
Richard’s comment about everything being “totally screwed” in open
source, but also points out misaligned incentives. She discusses
the economic challenges of open source, such as the failure of
sustaining efforts and its broader economic impact. [00:04:54]
Richard mentions his other podcast “Open Source for Climate” which
focuses on leveraging open source technology to combat the climate
crisis. [00:06:10] There’s a discussion about potential regulatory
and policy changes affecting open source, highlighting the need for
a more equitable system. Ashley delves into economic theories
relating to open source, particularly the concept of externalities
and potential regulatory solutions, and upcoming regulations like
the software bill of materials. [00:10:05] Tracy stresses the
importance of involving open source maintainers in policy
discussions to avoid misrepresentation by larger organizations
alone. [00:11:47] Richard and Ashley discuss the representations of
open source interests in policy making, particularly the dominance
of large companies and the potential exclusion of individual
maintainers. [00:16:04] Ashley critiques many language-based
foundations for their minimal contribution to ecosystem, using Node
Foundation as an example of one that has been beneficial due to its
library ecosystem, notably NPM. [00:17:35] Tracy acknowledges the
efforts of the Python Software Foundation (PSF) and Open Collective
in fostering ecosystems that support paid contributors, emphasizing
the importance of these roles for sustainability. [00:19:50]
Richard notes that while centralized support like AWS services
vouchers are helpful, these foundations do not effectively
facilitate crucial conversations between maintainers and
governments regarding open source regulation and standardization.
[00:21:52] Ashley reflects on her experience as the Individual
Membership Director at the Node Foundation, discussing the
challenges of representing a diverse community within open source
projects and foundations. [00:24:45] Tracy mentions her role as the
first community seat director on the board, highlighting the
evolution and ongoing adjustments in community representation
within foundation governance. Also, she discusses the importance of
involving individual maintainers in regulatory discussions.
[00:27:47] Tracy talks about the economic opportunities in open
source, facilitated by platforms like GitHub Sponsors and Patreon,
which help reduce barriers for maintainers seeking financial
support for their projects. [00:29:20] Ashley puts a small spin on
Tracy’s optimistic view, noting significant opposition to the
empowerment of small open source businesses, primarily due to
corporate-dominated structures and antitrust-friendly environments
in tech. She argues that open source has been consolidating.
[00:33:29] Ashley fills us in on where you can follow her and their
future discussions. She mentions a working group at the Eclipse
Foundation focusing on CRA legislation, announcing an initiative to
gather maintainer feedback on this legislation through a reading
group. [00:35:42] Tracy mentions where you can find her online.
Quotes [00:03:30] “We have open source – people who maintain open
source don’t really make a lot of money from it. Attempts to
sustain open source have largely failed.” [00:06:24] “Every OSS
hacker is also incentivized to be a lawyer.” Spotlight [00:36:32]
Richard’s spotlight is Jingna Zhang and her new social network,
Cara. [00:37:25] Tracy’s spotlight is the book, Working in Public:
The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software. [00:38:09]
Ashley’s spotlight is exercising for mental health. Links
SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Discourse
(https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email)
(mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email)
(mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Mastodon
(https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open
Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
(https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials
(https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Tracy Hinds X/Twitter
(https://x.com/hackygolucky?lang=en) Tracy Hinds Mastodon
(https://mastodon.social/@hackygolucky) Sustain Podcast-Episode 135
featuring Tracy Hinds (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/hinds)
Ashley Williams Twitter (https://x.com/ag_dubs) Ashley Williams
LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygwilliams/) Sustain
Podcast-Episode 145 featuring Ashley Williams
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/williams) Open Source
Initiative (https://opensource.org/) OSS for Climate Podcast
(https://ossforclimate.sustainoss.org/) Eclipse Foundation
(https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/) Jingna Zhang
(https://www.zhangjingna.com/) Cara (https://cara.app/login)
Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source
Software by Nadia Eghbal
(https://www.amazon.com/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/0578675862)
Sustain Podcast-Episode 51 featuring Nadia Eghbal
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/nadia) Credits Produced by
Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr
at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by
DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/)
Special Guests: Ashley Williams and Tracy Hinds.