Ep. 165: David Wray and Lynda Kitamura - Talent Development and Learning

Contact David Wray:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-w-29627882/
Contact Lyna Kitamura:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lyndahawtonkitamura/


FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Mitch:
(00:05)
 Welcome back to Count Me In, IMA's podcast about all things
affecting the accounting and finance world. This is your host
Mitch Roshong. And today you'll be listening to episode 165 of
our series. A Harvard Business Review study concluded that more
than 357 billion dollars spent annually on learning and
development did not achieve the desired return on investment. It
turns out that only one in 10 used the learn skills and only one
in four believe training actually improved their performance. So
we must ask, is there a better way to learn the critical,
personal and business skills we need? Fortunately, for today's
episode, you will hear from Lynda Kitamura, a seasoned Chief
Financial Officer with a background that covers multinational to
startup. We will also hear from David Wray, the author of the
Power of Potential, and the President of the International Group
of the French CFO network, DF CG. They spoke with Adam about
their view on what accounting professionals can do to accelerate
the transition to effective continuous learning. A skill the
World Economic Forum Report on the future of jobs concludes is
critically important and will remain so through 2025. So now
let's head over and listen to the conversation.
 
 Adam: (01:25)
 So the Harvard Business Review findings that only 25% of
learning attendees, find that what they learn improves their
performance. What has been your experience with traditional
learning approaches?
 
 David: (01:37)
 Maybe I'll start that question then. Adam, it's a great
question to really set the context for the discussion with Lynda
and personally I've long believed that the traditional methods of
learning are woefully inadequate, and that's because they use the
same approach in terms of being an outside-in approach. Let me
explain what I mean by that. So I've got this philosophy that
says, you know, an outside-in approach is effectively when
someone comes into a room and they start talking about their
experience, the way they learn their techniques, their tools. And
that's great for them. In fact, it's brilliant for them, but it's
not necessarily good for me. It's not necessarily good for Lynda
or even for you or anybody else. So what I talk about a lot more
in what I've practiced my entire career is this idea of the
inside out method of learning.
 
 David: (02:28)
 And basically, let me give you an example of, what that
inside-out method looks like. And I'll use public speaking as an
example. So if you think of the traditional way of learning, you
would end up going into a classroom, they would teach you about
tone. They would teach you about pitch. Maybe they would teach
you about what to wear, how to use media, how to walk around the
stage and things like that. So all external things, but what they
don't teach you for example is how do you harness your nerves as
you're about ready to walk on stage and you're nervous. You've
got butterflies. You're feeling that little bit of nausea. As you
walk on thinking this, can I even do this? That's what they need
to teach you. And when you look at experts in this, they've got a
very specific technique for how they harness that nervousness and
create a really positive energy for themselves.
 
 David: (03:15)
 That's what I mean by inside out. So it's taking the things
, you can't see the skills and attributes you can't see, and
basically using that to develop expertise. And that's what I
refer to as the visible versus the invisible elements of being
skilled at something. And it helps to put this in context from
the stages of learning. So if you think about learning from the
standpoint of we've got this unconscious incompetence, meaning we
don't know, we don't know something, right? And we all start
there every single one of us at some point. And it's then
recognizing that we have that gap in knowledge, and then how do
we then move it from the first phase, which is not being aware to
then the awareness we're still potentially incompetent in that
context. And I use that term very loosely, but at least now we
know we don't know something. Then we need to move it to having
this conscious competence.
 
 David: (04:08)
 Now we're starting to be aware that we've got a skill.
We're applying it. We're starting to get fairly good at it. And
ultimately when we move to mastery, it moves to a level of
unconsciousness again. So then, you know, you look at experts and
they can be incredibly talented. And when you speak to them and
say, Hey, how do you do that? How do you harness your nerves
before you walk on stage? And the typical answer you get at first
is, I don't know, I just do it. And it's about how you get below
that to say, Hey, how do you really do it? Tell me a little bit
about what you go through so that you can start to understand the
techniques that are basically hidden. So that's why I feel that
the traditional outside-in approach of learning, doesn't work. So
the Harvard Business Review finding's really don't surprise me
from that perspective. What's your take Lynda?
 
 Lynda: (04:53)
 Thanks, David. Certainly would concur , with everything
that you are saying, just from my experience, I would say, to
everyone that we wouldn't discount traditional learning. I think
of it more as a foundation, but as David, as you said, you
absolutely as an individual or with your teams need to build on
it. So an analogy think of watching a cooking show versus going
into the kitchen and cooking. Both important. But you do not know
until you actually do something or as you say, David, you
practice something or you try it. You don't uncover what you do
know and what you don't know. You haven't taken the technical
learning. Maybe it's your accounting designation. Maybe it's some
other expertise and brought it to top of mind where it's more
inside, it's more intuitive. So I would say, you know, build on,
on those traditional, if you have them, because they do serve a
purpose, but David, as you said, then how do you internalize it?
How do you become self aware? This is what I do well, but these
are my gaps and then start doing things and it can be a class or
it can be practice, or if it can be a volunteer role or it can be
an assignment on a board. There's ways, different ways of doing
that practice.
 
 Adam: (06:13)
 So you both raise some very interesting examples. And if
you could choose one example to share with the listeners where
you personally had the richest learning experience, what would
that be and why that one? Lynda, can we start with you?
 
 Lynda: (06:29)
 Let me think. an example. I think one of my best examples
for myself was early in my career. So I was working with a
multinational high tech company and I was very early mid
twenties. And this company went through its first acquisition of
a workstation company. And at that time there hadn't been
processes or protocol. They said, Hey, Lynda, would you go over
to this company's offices, other side of the city and just figure
out how to integrate it. So I had my accounting and business
degrees and I had that piece, but until I went over and learned,
okay, where is your general ledger? Where are your systems? What
do you do? And immerse yourself in it, you don't know what you do
and don't know. About a company, about the business model, about
the people, as David said, half of it is, the emotional
intelligence and emotional quotient. And so I think for me,
immersing myself...