Episode 145: Ashley Williams on Open Source Software Sustainability

Guest Ashley Williams Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman
Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk
about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are super
excited to have Ashley Williams joining us. Ashley is the Founder
and CEO of Axo. She is also a former member of the Rust Core Team,
founder of the Rust Foundation, and served as its first Executive
Director. She was the leader of the Node.js Community Committee and
founded the NodeTogether educational initiative. Today, Ashley
shares her background with us from working at NPM, joining Mozilla,
building the Rust Foundation, and she fills us in on Axo, which she
explains is the tool company for tool companies. She also has some
suggestions on how open source projects can get money to become
successful in the long term. Go ahead and download this episode now
to learn more! [00:01:41] Ashley explains what Axo does. [00:04:07]
When Ashley moved from Node to Rust, she tells us what she took to
the community there from the lessons she learned from Node, and how
she wanted to build great communities in Rust. [00:09:35] We learn
more about the process of building the Rust Foundation and why
building it was necessary. [00:15:02] Justin wonders what it was
that made the organizations calm again and why did they stick with
Rust. [00:17:07] Ashley explains what the difference is for her and
why one is better for open source software sustainability.
[00:21:24] How do open source projects position themselves in the
future to continue to have stake in their own governance and their
own sustainability and where does Ashley think they should be
investing their time? [00:23:28] We hear some tips from Ashley
about the best way for a project to have a conversation with each
other about setting goals and intentions for their project in a way
that isn’t alienating. [00:30:02] Ashley shares a little of her
background with us after leaving NPM, joining Mozilla, and she
tells us about a tool she built called, wasm-pack. [00:33:35] We
find out where can you learn about Axo, get involved, and if it’s
open source. [00:35:15] Ashley shares some tips on what open source
projects can do to get money to help themselves go forward and
become financially viable in the long term. [00:40:11] Find out
where you can follow Ashley on the web. Quotes [00:05:57] “I got
super burned out of community work and Node and everyone kept
throwing it in my face that I wasn’t technical. If I wasn’t so busy
doing all this other stuff maybe I would commit some code.”
[00:06:59] “When you build a community in reaction to something,
when you stop reacting to that thing it’s hard to figure out what
you do next and how you grow it.” [00:10:18] “It’s way worse to
have a foundation too early than having a foundation too late.”
[00:17:49] “I love to say ergonomics is eighty percent familiarity,
and it appears to be true for organizations that are doing
fundraising,” [00:18:31] “The goal of that Linux Foundation
generation was to get corporations to use open source, which in a
way is the opposite of making it sustainable because it adds an
incredible burden.” [00:20:20] “I don’t think charity is the same
as sustainability.” [00:24:23] “Try and get people to itch the same
way.” [00:24:42] “Having really strong communication brand and
marketing helps drive that shared collective vision.” [00:24:50] “I
think Rust had really fantastic marketing for a really long time
and that helped drive the community to have as much of a shared
vision as is possible in a group of software engineers.” [00:29:00]
“I don’t know if open source wants to be sustained.” [00:32:42]
“Pay attention to the types of open source maintainers that are
getting hired versus the ones that aren’t, because there are some
patterns that no one should be proud of.” [00:35:57] “Get a company
that loves your project and then get them to hire you to work on
it.” [00:39:49] “The era of open source we’re in, there’s need for
more safeguards.” Spotlight [00:41:01] Justin’s spotlight is
axii.axo.dev. [00:41:34] Richard’s spotlight is an animated Chobani
yogurt commercial. [00:42:25] Ashley’s spotlight is the Embroidery
Trouble Shooting Guide. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/)
SustainOSS Twitter
(https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/)
podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard
Littauer Twitter
(https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
Justin Dorfman Twitter
(https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
Ashley Williams Twitter (https://twitter.com/ag_dubs) Ashley
Williams LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygwilliams) Axo
(https://www.axo.dev/) Axo Twitter
(https://twitter.com/axodotdev?lang=en) Sustain Podcast-Episode
135: Tracy Hinds on Node.js’s CommComm and PMs in Open Source
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/135) Sustain Podcast-Episodes
featuring guest Ewa Jodlowska
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/ewa-jodlowska) Sustain
Podcast-Episode featuring guest Deb Nicholson
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/debofthenorth) Sustain
Podcast-Episode featuring guest Karen Sandler
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/karen-sandler) Sustain
Podcast-Episode 56-Dominic Tarr on Coding What You Want, Living On
A Boat, and the Early Days of Node.js
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/56) Sustain Open Source Design
Podcast (https://sosdesign.sustainoss.org/) Sustain
Podcast-Episodes featuring guest Mike McQuaid
(https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/mcquaid) axii.axo
(https://axii.axo.dev/) Eat today, feed tomorrow-Chobani commercial
(YouTube) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS-sJQkr0H4) Embroidery
Trouble Shooting Guide
(https://web.archive.org/web/20140310190221/http:/www.sewingandembroiderywarehouse.com/embtrb.htm)
Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/)
Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound
(https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr
Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest:
Ashley Williams.