Episode 202: Ben Hutton on JSON Schema

Guest Ben Hutton Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and
welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open
source for the long haul. In this episode, Richard introduces us to
Ben Hutton, a Specification Lead for JSON Schema at Postman. They
discuss the evolution and diverse applications of JSON Schema, its
funding, and the importance of open standards for interoperability
and innovation. The episode delves into real-world use cases,
community feedback, and the 10-year vision for JSON Schema. Join
Richard and Ben as they explore how JSON Schema is shaping the
development stack and its potential impact on various industries.
Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:00] Ben describes his work on
JSON Schema at Postman. His work entails leading the project,
finding ways to move forward, creating visions and roadmaps.
[00:01:50] Richard brings up the question of understanding the
market value for a Schema like JSON and asks Ben to elaborate on
the improvements and ways they are moving forward. Ben explains how
JSON Schema has evolved over time to cater to more use cases.
[00:03:22] Ben explains that Postman funds his work because JSON
Schema is used by The OpenAPI Specification, a standard for
defining the interface and data structure of APIs, which is a part
of Postman products. [00:04:20] Richard asks about the number of
maintainers and community members for JSON Schema, and Ben tells us
there are about five or six core maintainers and a community size
around 15,000. [00:05:16] What’s the importance of open standards
and why do they need continuous improvements? Ben explains that the
team helps developers understand and use JSON Schemas and supports
the implementers of the Schema across different programming
languages. [00:07:24] Ben discusses a use case with Six River
Systems, illustrating how JSON Schema helped different teams within
a company to define their data structures and communicate more
effectively, preventing bugs and misunderstandings. [00:09:29] We
hear why open standards are important, as Ben states that standards
are vital for creating value that people can use and ensure
interoperability and they can also spur innovation. [00:11:51] Ben
explains that JSON Schema was initially a personal draft within the
IETF, but due to lack of alignment and communication issues,
they’ve decided to publish their own standards while still
maintaining some principles from the IETF. [00:14:51] What’s the
difference between JSON Schema and JSON? Ben explains JSON is used
for API calls, and JSON Schema defines the stricture of expected
JSON data. He also speaks about managing radical change requests,
maintaining standards, and the value of community feedback, and he
reveals an official JSON Schema test suite and a new tool called
Bowtie. [00:18:23] Richard asks about the funding and progression
of JSON Schema, given its foundational role and slower pace of
development. Ben describes Postman’s evolution from a basic API
client to a comprehensive API platform. [00:20:01] Ben mentions
other companies, such as Retool and Airbnb, that support JSON
Schema due to its utility in their own offerings, and he talks
about Microsoft’s usage and a pending case study on how GitHub uses
JSON Schema internally. [00:24:09] Richard asks Ben about his
10-year vision for JSON Schema. Ben envisions JSON Schema being
used throughout the entire development stack, from inception to
defining data structures and models. He tells us about a case study
they used from Open Metadata. [00:27:18] The topic of financial
needs for JSON Schema is brought up and Ben is content with current
funding but admits they need to assess financial stability. He also
tells us about future plans improving compliance and supporting the
ecosystem to ensure interoperability across different languages and
backgrounds. [00:31:12] Richard asks about potential threats to
JSON Schema, and Ben mentions that biggest threat would be if
something were to replace JSON, and simplicity and ease of learning
are key strengths of JSON and JSON Schema. [00:33:47] Find out
where you can learn more about Ben and JSON Schema online.
Spotlight [00:35:31] Richard’s spotlight is the book, Sir Gawain
and the Green Knight by J. R. R. Tolkien and The Green Knight
(film). [00:36:08] Ben’s spotlight is MeetingBar for Meet, Zoom
& Co. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS
Twitter
(https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/)
podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS
Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open
Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
(https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter
(https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
Ben Hutton Website (https://benhutton.me/) Ben Hutton Twitter
(https://twitter.com/relequestual?lang=en) Ben Hutton Mastodon
(https://fosstodon.org/@relequestual) JSON Schema
(https://json-schema.org/) JSON Schema Slack
(https://json-schema.org/slack) JSON Schema GitHub
(https://github.com/json-schema-org) JSON Schema Open Collective
(Donate) (https://opencollective.com/json-schema) JSON Schema
Twitter (https://twitter.com/jsonschema) Postman
(https://www.postman.com/) Open banking (Wikipedia)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking) Open Banking
(https://www.openbanking.org.uk/) Bowtie
(https://json-schema.org/blog/posts/bowtie-intro) Retool
(https://retool.com/) Open Metadata (https://open-metadata.org/)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight by J. R. R. Tolkien and E. V.
Gordon
(https://global.oup.com/academic/product/sir-gawain-and-the-green-knight-9780198114864?cc=us&lang=en&)
The Green Knight (film)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Knight_(film)) MeetingBar
for Meet, Zoom & Co
(https://apps.apple.com/us/app/meetingbar-for-meet-zoom-co/id1532419400?mt=12)
Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/)
Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound
(https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr
Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest:
Ben Hutton.