Episode 209: Amanda Casari, Julie Ferraioli & Juniper Lovato and open source ecosystems research

Guests Amanda Casari | Julie Ferraioli | Juniper Lovato Panelist
Richard Littauer Show Notes In today’s episode of Sustain, Richard
is joined by guests, Amanda Casari, devrel engineer and open source
researcher at Google Open Source Programs Office, Julie Ferraioli,
an independent open source strategist, researcher, practitioner,
and Partner at Open Chapters, and Juniper Lovato, Director of
partnerships and programs at the Vermont Complex Systems Center at
UVM and Data Ethics researcher. Amanda, Julia, and Juniper join the
discussion, bringing a wealth of expertise in the open source
domain. The conversation gravitates towards an article co-authored
by the guests, striking a balance between open source software and
open source ecosystems research. The episode dives deep into the
“10 simple things” format of the article, the crucial importance of
collective conversations, and a keen exploration of open source
researchers. Hit download now to hear more cool stuff! [00:01:29]
Richard tells us why he invited our three guests today and he talks
about their previous accomplishments and backgrounds. [00:02:17]
Our discussion moves to the title of a new article co-authored by
the guests. We hear about the intended audience of the article and
the distinction made between open source software and open source
ecosystems research. [00:03:31] Richard brings up where the article
fits in the academic landscape, and it’s revealed to be more
editorial than research. [00:04:17] There’s a conversation about
the “10 simple things” format, its origin, and the motivation
behind it. They put an emphasis on the need for collective
conversation and the value of sharing experiences and knowledge.
[00:07:28] Richard brings up the idea of open source researchers
and mentions various figures and institutions involved in open
source research. Juniper clarifies the target audience for the
article and its intentions, Julie shares her perspective from the
industry side and the importance of a critical framework, and
Amanda expresses her emotional response to some researchers’
approach towards the open source community. [00:12:03] Julie
discusses the emotional challenges that inspired the paper’s best
practices emphasizing not repeating negative behaviors, and Juniper
notes tension in research between benefits for the community and
for the researchers emphasizing understanding norms and values for
studying open source communities. [00:13:52] Richard mentions there
are nine principles in the paper and asks about the principle
regarding treating open source ecosystems as systems “in
production.” Amanda highlights the importance of considering the
real-world impact of research in open source and mentions an
incident where a university was banned from the Linux kernel due to
disruptive changes. [00:16:33] Julie emphasizes the potential
broader impact on industry systems when modifying open source
systems and she raises the point that tampering with open source
systems might inadvertently affect critical infrastructure. Amanda
comments on the increasing cybersecurity concerns around open
source. [00:19:18] Richard brings up a real-world example of a
university introducing bugs to the Linux kernel and points out the
need for considering ethical implications beyond just production
systems. [00:20:59] Richard draws parallels between addressing
these issues and addressing racism, and Juniper adds that the
scientific process is ongoing and should evolve with technology and
societal values. [00:21:53] Julie describes the complexity of open
source funding and compensation and points out the challenge in
understanding motivations and expectations of open source
participants. [00:24:07] Amanda emphasizes the difficulty of
summarizing each section, noting that each one could be a chapter
or book and she expresses her concerns about not just individual
equity but organizational equity. [00:25:59] Juniper raises the
issue of invisible labor in open source. [00:26:39] Julie
highlights the importance of recognizing that open source
repository data might not capture all the activity and
contributions made by community members. [00:27:37] Amanda
discusses the challenges and importance of capturing data,
especially when it may put individuals at risk. Juniper stresses
the importance of involving communities in the research process and
gaining their consent, ensuring their dignity, security, and
privacy. [00:29:49] Julie discusses the complexities of identity
within the open source community, highlighting that individuals can
hold multiple identities in this space. [00:31:10] Richard adds
that the insight shared are not just for open source researchers
but also for anyone involved in the open source ecosystem. He
emphasizes the need to be aware of biases and the importance of
understanding the data one works with. [00:32:22] Richard prompts a
summary of the main points in the paper, which are read by our
guests. [00:34:48] Find out where you can learn more about our
guests and their work online. Quotes [00:20:08] “Production as the
end line for ethical values leads to a lot of really thorny edge
cases that are going to ultimately hurt the communities of people
who aren’t working on production ready systems.” [00:21:20] “Just
as open source is always in production, so is the scientific
process.” [00:23:24] “Even having the privilege of time to dedicate
to open source is not available to all.” [00:24:26] “It’s just not
individual equity but organizational equity.” [00:25:47] “We can’t
ignore the very large industry that is open source that has all
that money moving around and where it’s going is a question we
should all be asking.” [00:26:00] “There’s a lot of invisible labor
in open source.” [00:28:32] “Leaving out communities from the
scientific process of the research process leaves open these
vulnerabilities without giving them a voice to what kind of
research is being done about them without their consent.”
[00:29:17] “What we are starting to consider acceptable
surveillance in public is really being challenged.” [00:29:33]
“It’s really important for us to make sure that we’re maintaining
people’s dignity, security, and privacy while we’re doing this kind
of research.” Spotlight [00:35:45] Richard's spotlight is The Long
Trail that he’s going to hike. [00:36:17] Amanda’s spotlight is
contributor-experience.org and the PyPI subpoena transparency
report. [00:37:20] Julie’s spotlight is the book, Data Feminism.
[00:38:09] Juniper’s spotlight is a new tool called, XGI. Links
SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter
(https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/)
podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS
Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open
Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
(https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter
(https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
Amanda Casari Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari) Amanda Casari
Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@amcasari) Google Open Source
(https://opensource.google/) Open Source Stories
(http://opensourcestories.org/) Julia Ferraioli Twitter
(https://twitter.com/juliaferraioli) Julia Ferraioli Website
(https://www.juliaferraioli.com/) Open Chapters
(https://openchapters.tech/) Juniper Lovato Website
(https://juniperlovato.com/) Juniper Lovato Twitter
(https://twitter.com/juniperlov) Vermont Complex Systems Center-UVM
(https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/resources/75-vermont-complex-systems-center)
Sustain Podcast-Episode 111: Amanda Casari on ACROSS and Measuring
Contributions in OSS (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/111) XKCD
(https://xkcd.com/) Beyond the Repository: Best practices for open
source ecosystems researchers by Amanda Casari, Julia Ferraioli,
and Juniper Lovato (https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3595879)
Operationalizing the CARE and FAIR Principles for Indigenous data
futures (scientific data)
(https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-021-00892-0) The Long Trail
(https://www.greenmountainclub.org/the-long-trail/) Welcome to the
Contributor Experience Handbook
(https://contributor-experience.org/) Contributor experience-Why it
matters (SciPy 2023)
(https://blog.pypi.org/posts/2023-05-24-pypi-was-subpoenaed/) PyPI
was subpoenaed by Ee Durbin
(https://blog.pypi.org/posts/2023-05-24-pypi-was-subpoenaed/) Data
Feminism by Catherine D’Ignazio and Lauren F. Klein
(https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262547185/data-feminism/) The CompleX
Group Interactions (XGI)
(https://xgi.readthedocs.io/en/stable/index.html) Credits Produced
by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M.
Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show
notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound
(https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Amanda Casari,
Julia Ferraioli, and Juniper Lovato.