Episode 226: Jacob Kaplan-Moss on Compensating Open Source Maintainers (but not that way)

Guest Jacob Kaplan-Moss Panelist Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari
Show Notes This episode of Sustain explores the challenges and
dynamics of funding open source projects. Host Richard Littauer and
co-host Amanda Casari welcome guest Jacob Kaplan-Moss, Board Member
and Treasurer of the Django Software Foundation, and Security
Architect at Latacora. The discussion covers Jacob’s recent blog
post on the criticism faced by open source maintainers who seek
compensation, highlighting the backlash encountered from seeing
grants to selling T-shirts. The conversation also explores the
ethical use of open source software, the importance of supporting
maintainers financially, and the complexities surrounding the
definition and licensing of open source software. Additionally,
this episode touches on the personal connection to open source, the
struggle for maintainers to find sustainable funding models, and
the potential impact of high net worth individual donations.
Download this episode now to hear more! [00:00:53] Richard
highlights Jacob’s association with Django and his role as a
security architect and brings up a blog post Jacob wrote about the
experience of being an open source maintainer. He shares examples
of maintainers who face undue criticism for monetizing their open
source work in various ways and his thesis. Also, Richard endorses
the Blue Oak Council and PolyForm Project. [00:06:24] Amanda
appreciates the blog’s message about the sustainability of open
source and the need to pay maintainers. Jacob recounts the largely
positive reception of his post but also addresses the critical and
unproductive responses, and he clarifies his stance on the
importance of formal definitions of open source. [00:10:14] Richard
suggests the term “Big Tent Open Source” and discusses the
importance of having standards to precent open washing while also
encouraging diversity in licensing. Jacob uses the term
“monogamish” as an analogy for a more flexible approach to open
source licensing. [00:11:46] Amanda discusses her background in
releasing various types of open source work and how it sometimes
differs from web apps, and touches on the complexities of open
source licensing. She asks Jacob about his concerns regarding the
adoption of open source in larger systems, and he shares his
experience with government technology procurement, stressing the
necessity of precise definitions of open source in that context.
[00:16:40] Richard shifts the conversation to ethical
considerations of open source work, specifically when software is
used for harmful purposes, like state interventions. Jacob gives us
a nuanced view on the ethical use of open source software and the
impossibility of drawing a clear line between good and evil uses.
[00:20:56] Jacob provides insights into the Django Software
Foundation’s current scale, funding, and staffing, highlighting the
significant impact even a small increase in funding could have, and
he discusses the challenge of scaling funding across the vast
number of open source projects to achieve broad sustainability.
[00:23:16] Jacobs talks about the potential of engaging high net
worth individuals and family foundations for donations as they may
be more receptive than corporations. [00:24:54] Richard discusses
the groups privilege and raises the question regarding giving back
to open source or to the broader community, and Jacob explains he
avoids judging others’ financial decisions but acknowledges his own
better-off position and the personal moral obligation he feels to
give back. [00:27:05] The conversation shifts to Richard asking
Jacob how to support each other’s capitalist ventures while
contributing to the open source community. He suggests
congratulating individual successes and learning from them, while
also being comfortable criticizing the systems and institutions
that may be at odds with open source values. [00:28:53] Find out
where you can learn more about Jacob on the internet. Quotes
[00:01:40] “There’s this dynamic that happens around open source,
where when someone takes money, someone always shows up to
criticize them for it.” [00:04:07] “Anytime an open source
maintainer figures out a way to get paid to build a lifestyle, at
the very least comfortable, we should be celebrating that.”
[00:06:46] “The community has coalesced around a definition of open
source as defined by the OSI. I was like wait a minute, how are you
conflating the open source community with one foundation? I don’t
agree with this conflation of the OSI speaks for all open source.”
[00:13:39] “If you work in technology for the government ling
enough, eventually you come to realize that every problem is a
procurement problem.” [00:18:16] “Even the MIT license is, do
whatever you want, just don’t sue me.” [00:22:18] “To reach a point
where I would say that open source as a whole is broadly
sustainable, I would want every single project to have that level
of funding associated with it.” Spotlight [00:30:11] Amanda’s
spotlight is a book coming out next month called, “Software
Engineering for Data Scientists.” [00:30:42] Richard’s spotlight is
the book, “Better Living Through Birding: Notes from a Black Man in
the Natural World.” [00:31:20] Jacob’s spotlight is the PolyForm
family of licenses and the book, “Producing Open Source Software:
How to Run a Successful Free Software Project.” Links SustainOSS
(https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter
(https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)
SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/)
podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS
Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open
Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
(https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials
(https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Amanda Casari
X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari?lang=en) Jacob Kaplan-Moss
LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobian/) Jacob Kaplan-Moss
Website (https://jacobian.org/) Jacob Kaplan-Moss Mastodon
(https://social.jacobian.org/@jacob) Django Software Foundation
(https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/) Django
(https://www.djangoproject.com/) Latacora
(https://www.latacora.com/) Jacob’s Blog post: “Paying people to
work on open source is good actually”
(https://jacobian.org/2024/feb/16/paying-maintainers-is-good/) Blue
Oak Council (https://blueoakcouncil.org/) PolyForm Project
(https://polyformproject.org/) PolyForm Licenses
(https://polyformproject.org/licenses/) Pamela Chestek LinkedIn
(https://www.linkedin.com/in/pchestek/) Sasha Magee X/Twitter post
on government procurement
(https://twitter.com/sashax/status/941036458307076097) 18F
(https://18f.gsa.gov/) What you should know about Vermont’s
proposed wealth taxes (Vermont Edition)
(https://www.vermontpublic.org/show/vermont-edition/2024-02-12/what-you-should-know-about-vermonts-proposed-wealth-taxes)
Software Engineering for Data Scientists by Catherine Nelson
(https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/software-engineering-for/9781098136192/)
Better Living Through Birding: Notes From a Black Man in the
Natural World by Christian Cooper
(https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/671722/better-living-through-birding-by-christian-cooper/)
Producing Open Source Software: How to Run a Successful Free
Software Project by Karl Fogel (https://producingoss.com/) Credits
Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by
Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/)
Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound
(https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Jacob Kaplan-Moss.