The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast

Allen and Joel sit down with Michael McQueenie, Head of Sales for SkySpecs in Europe at the SkySpecs Customer Forum. They discuss the booming European wind energy market, SkySpecs' role in asset management, and their expansion into solar farm operations. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind Energy's brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering Tomorrow. Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast Spotlight. I have Joel Saxum with me. I'm Allen Hall, the host, and we are here with Michael McQueenie head of sales for SkySpecs over in Europe. Michael, welcome to the show.  Michael McQueenie: Thanks for having me.  Allen Hall: We are at SkySpecs customer Form 2025 and it has been a blowout event, so many operators from all over learning and exchanging information about how they operate their assets. We wanted to have you on today because you're our reference to Europe and what is happening with SkySpecs in Europe. America and Europe are on different pathways at the moment. What is that status right now in Europe? What are people calling you for today?  Michael McQueenie: the, European market is really booming. we get calls from customers to support [00:01:00] with internal inspections, external inspections as we always have for, nearly a decade now. We are seeing a lot more, discussions around the, enablement services that we can offer. how did, how do we bring a blade engineer and how do we bring a CMS engineer into support and give us, give us more of an insight on the data that we have or, or the data that Skys fix are producing. things are evolving. and, it's a buoyant offshore industry at the moment.  Allen Hall: yeah, there's like thousands of turbines going up right now. it used to be when you thought of. Deployment. Unlike Germany, for example, it'd be three turbines on the hillside.  Michael McQueenie: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Now we're talking about in the uk have hundreds of turbines hitting the water. Michael McQueenie: Yeah.  Allen Hall: And that's change of scale has driven a lot of operators realize I need expertise in blades, I need expertise in CMS. I need an expert in gearbox, but I don't necessarily need them full time.  Michael McQueenie: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Skys spec. Can you help me?  Michael McQueenie: the projects [00:02:00] are, they're fewer projects, but they're, the scale of these projects are massive. the scale of the turbine scale of the projects and the impact the projects can have on, the country, as a whole is, is massive. So yeah, it's, it is a. It's a, it is a great time to be in Europe and to see the growth. it's been, coming for a long time. I've worked with consultancies who are looking at feasibility studies, in offshore, and onshore. But the, the growth has been. Just, it's just around the corner. And I do feel like now with some of these big projects that they're installing, and yeah, just given the size of the turbines, it's it's massive.  Joel Saxum: one of the things I want to, I think there's an important context here is that we're talking, we're sitting in Ann Arbor, right? we're in the us You're over in Europe. I worked for a Danish company for a while and it was always like this seven hour delay. Kinda can I get the in, can I get the support? Can they get the support? Can we work? How do we work back and forth? Sometimes it was cool because you'd send an email at two o'clock and when you woke up in the morning [00:03:00] it was done. That was awesome. But also there was these delays. Now this is the interesting thing here is, and Skys facts. This morning we listened to Cheryl. always a great presentation. Yeah. the head of the TEI blade stuff here. She was delivering some insights, but with her was Thomas. Thomas is in Europe. And you have CMS experts in Europe. You have the local talent that's over there that can work with these operators on their timelines, on their regular day stuff. They're not waiting as, and what I'm trying to get to is, is SkySpecs is not a Ann Arbor company. Skyspace is a global company in a big way. And so this, so thinking like, oh, this is an American company, w. Will we use someone that's more local no. No. Skyspace is a local European company as well.  Michael McQueenie: Yeah, and we've got the SMEs over there. it's not just Cheryl, who's a fantastic en engineer. Having your at your, disposal, Thomas is phenomenal. customers are seeing real value in integrating him into their team, being the SME [00:04:00] for them, as you, as we said before. Being able to turn 'em off, on and off as required. Don't, you've not got that the FTE cost right. to bring in an SME that, that needs to, support you with a, with an individual component of your, asset. Yeah. Blades are a huge problem. The industry's seeing that as they're getting bigger, the problems are getting bigger. but yeah, having, a local presence in Europe is, massive. my inbox is full from, all the US. Inquiries and issues, during the night, just like you're saying. Yeah. And I wake up to dozens of emails with, requirements on inbox and my to-do list is full. But the, but the reality is yeah, we're, grown in Europe. we are. Our real solid presence in Europe and we've, seen massive growth this year.  Joel Saxum: I think it, it's part of the value chain there. Touching on the Thomas and Cheryl. Right. So in SkySpecs over this week, we've been talking more and more about the, how you guys like to specifically work within a workflow. And that workflow being we have [00:05:00]inspections, we're in the platform now we're in horizon, bam. And we can enable the tech enabled services, which is those SMEs which you have inside. The company and then rolling that forward to the repair vendor management, which is happening in a big way in the States. Yesterday I saw a number, $13 million in repairs managed by the Sky Spec team. That's huge. And, that same capability. And we're just talking blazes right now, like we haven't even touched on CMS performance monitoring, financial asset monitoring. That same concept is, is replica replicate in the EU as well.  Michael McQueenie: No, it absolutely is, Our customers have got problems, we can help them with the problems. Thomas is, as you said, we work in workflows and Thomas is, is looking to support customers with how they, touch their data as few times as they possibly can. How do we get from A to B and how does a customer understand what their problems are and how they fix the problems? And sometimes an [00:06:00]SME is the, way to fix that. Thomas has provide, provided huge value to our customers. The design of workflows in Horizon is the, essence. It exists just to try and get from A to B and, and try and drive insights and then next steps. And I think that's the important part, being, this is the action to  Joel Saxum: get  Michael McQueenie: to the, we've got the data, we understand what the data's telling us. here's an insight, but actually what is the follow up? And, Thomas is designing that follow up for our customers and providing the support.  Allen Hall: and just a little bit comparison between the United States and Europe, when we still talk to anybody in the United States about a turbine. Almost always, it's a two megawatt, one and a half megawatt turbine, right? Occasionally a four. Sometimes someone says  Joel Saxum: yesterday like, oh, that's a three megawatt  Allen Hall: turbine. Whoa, what's big? And in Europe, three megawatts was like years ago, particularly offshore that, everything's 6, 8, 10.  Michael McQueenie: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Plus  Michael McQueenie: 3.6 was the common [00:07:00] turbine. Five, eight.  Allen Hall: Yeah.  Michael McQueenie: Years ago, that was, what everyone was working on. And, they're a very reliable turbine. It's, there was a reason why there were so many of them installed at that time. but nowadays, we're helping OEMs with 50 megawatt turbines.  Allen Hall: and I think that's the, thing that we just don't see in the states is a turbine that's 15 megawatts is down for a day. Is so much more expensive and particularly offshore and the expenses go astronomical compared to onshore. Yeah, and Michael, I always see your position of you're there to save. Millions of pounds or millions, of euros all the time because a shutdown there is huge.  Joel Saxum: Yeah.  Allen Hall: And because the grids are changing so much in Europe where they're becoming more solar and wind dependent and coal is going to change away. And  Joel Saxum: triage.  Allen Hall: Yeah. The triage bit, is that the SkySpecs is in that position to really help a lot our operators out. You're [00:08:00] providing the insights and the guidance and the knowledge that. An operator probably doesn't have, because they don't have the staff to go do it. It's a And can you enlighten us like what that is because we just don't see a lot of that here. Michael McQueenie: Yeah. I think there's a good reason you don't see that this was, we are just providing data to some of these, transactions. Whether it's a due diligence, inspection, or an end of warranty. We are just providing the insights for the customers to. Make their own decisions. Um, so it's not a SkySpecs decision. We are just providing insights to, to allow them to make a, smart, educated, data-driven decision.  Joel Saxum: I think that's important, concept too. 'cause like here,

The crew discusses LM Wind Power's dramatic layoff of 60% of remaining Danish staff, dropping from 90 to just 31 workers. What does this mean for thousands of wind farms with LM blades? Is government intervention possible? Who might acquire the struggling blade manufacturer? Plus, a preview of the Wind Energy O&M Australia 2026 conference in Melbourne this February. Learn more about CICNDT!Register for ORE Catapult's UK Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight! Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!  If you haven't downloaded your latest edition of PES Wind Magazine, now's the time issue four for 2025. It's the last issue for 2025 is out and I just received mine in the Royal Mail. I had a brief time to review some of the articles inside of this issue. Tremendous content, uh, for the end of the year. Uh, you wanna sit down and take a good long read. There's plenty of articles that affect what you're doing in your wind business, so it's been a few moments. Go to peswind.com Download your free copy and read it today. You're listening to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast, brought to you by build turbines.com. Learn, train, and be a part of the Clean Energy Revolution. Visit build turbines.com today. Now here's your hosts, Alan Hall, Joel Saxon, Phil Totaro, and Rosemary Barnes. Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy [00:01:00]Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Hall in the Queen city of Charlotte, North Carolina. I've got Yolanda Padron in Texas. Joel Saxon up in Wisconsin and Rosemary Barnes down under in Australia, and it has been a, a really odd Newsweek. There is a slow down happening in wind. Latest news from Ella Wind Power is they're gonna lay off about 60% of their staff in Denmark. They've only have about 90 employees there at the moment. Which is a dramatic reduction of what that company once was. Uh, so they're planning to lay off about 59 of the 90 workers that are still there. Uh, the Danish media is reporting. There's a lot of Danish media reporting on this at the moment. Uh, there's a letter that was put out by Ellen Windpower and it discusses that customers have canceled orders and are moving, uh, their blade production to internal factories. And I, I assume. That's a [00:02:00] GE slash Siemens effort that is happening, uh, that's affecting lm and customers are willing to pay prices that make it possible to run the LM business profitably. Uh, the company has also abandoned all efforts on large blades because I, I assume just because they don't see a future in it for the time being now, everybody is wondering. How GE Renova is involved in this because they still do own LM wind power. It does seem like there's two pieces to LM at the minute. One that serves GE Renova and then the another portion of the company that's just serving outside customers. Uh, so far, if, if you look at what GE Renova paid for the company and what revenue has been brought in, GE Renova has lost about 8.3 billion croner, which is a little over a billion dollars since buying the company in 2017. So it's never really been. Hugely profitable over that time. And remember a few months ago, maybe a month ago now, or two months ago, the CEO of LM [00:03:00] Windpower left the company. Uh, and I now everyone, I'm not sure what the future is for LM Windpower, uh, because it's, it has really dramatically shrunk. It's down to what, like 3000 total employees? I think they were up at one point to a little over when Rosie was there, about 14,000 employees. What has happened? Maybe Rosemary, you should start since you were working there at one point.  Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I dunno. It always makes me really sad and there's still a few people that I used to work with that were there when I went to Denmark in May and caught up with a bunch of, um, my old colleagues and most of them had moved on because a lot of firing had already happened by that point. But there were still a few there, but the mood was pretty despondent and I think that they guessed that this was coming. But I just find it really hard to see how with the number, just the pure number of people that are left there. I, I find it really hard to see how they can even support what they've still [00:04:00] got in the field. Um. Let alone like obviously they cut way back on manufacturing. Okay. Cut Way back on developing new products. Okay. But you still do need some capabilities to work through warranty claims and um, you know, and any kind of serial issues. Yeah, I would be worried about things like, um, you know, from time to time you need a new, a new blade or a new set of blades produced. Maybe a lot of them, you know, if you discover an issue, there's a serial defect that doesn't, um, become obvious until 10 years into the turbine's lifetime. You might need to replace a whole bunch of blades and are you gonna be able to, like, what's, what is gonna happen to this huge number of assets that are out there with LM blades on there? Uh, I, yeah, I, I would really like to see some announcements about what they're keeping, you know, what functionality they're planning to keep and what they're planning to excise.  Joel Saxum: But I mean, at the end of the day, if it's, if [00:05:00] the business is not profitable to run that they have no. Legal standing to have to stay open? Rosemary Barnes: No, no, of course not. We all know that there, there's, you know, especially like you go through California, there's all sorts of coast turbines there that nobody knows how to maintain them anymore. Right. And, um, yeah, and, and around there was one in, um, in Texas as well with some weird kind of gearbox. I can't remember what exactly, but yeah, like the company went bankrupt, no one knew what to do with them, so they just, you know, like fell into disrepair and couldn't be used anymore. 'cause if you can't. Operate them safely, then you can't let no one, the government is not gonna let you just, you know, just. Try your luck, operate them until rotors start flying off. You know, like that's not really how it works. So yeah, I do think that like you, you can't just stay silent about, um, what you expect to happen because you know, like maybe I have just done some, a bit of catastrophizing and, you know, finding worst case scenarios, but that is where your mind naturally goes. And the absence of information about what you can expect, [00:06:00] then that's what. People are naturally gonna do what I've just done and just think through, oh, you know, what, what could this mean for me? It might be really bad. So, um, yeah, it is a little bit, a little bit interesting.  Allen Hall: Delamination and bottom line, failures and blades are difficult problems to detect early. These hidden issues can cost you millions in repairs and lost energy production. C-I-C-N-D-T are specialists to detect these critical flaws before they become expensive burdens. Their non-destructive test technology penetrates deep to blade materials to find voids and cracks. Traditional inspections, completely. Miss C-I-C-N-D-T Maps. Every critical defect delivers actionable reports and provides support to get your blades. Back in service, so visit cic ndt.com because catching blade problems early will save you millions. Yolanda, what are asset managers [00:07:00] thinking about the LM changes as they proceed with orders and think about managing their LM Blade fleet over the next couple of years, knowing that LM is getting much smaller Quicker? Yolanda Padron: Yeah, and this all comes at a time when. A lot of projects are reaching the end of the full service agreements that they had with some of these OEMs, right? So you already know that your risk profile is increasing. You already know. I mean, like Rosie, you said worst case scenario, you have a few years left before you don't know what to do with some of the issues that are being presented. Uh, because you don't count with that first line of support that you typically would in this industry. It's really important to be able to get a good mix of the technical and the commercial. Right? We've all seen it, and of course, we're all a little bit biased because we're all engineers, right? So we, to us it makes a lot of sense to go over the engineering route. But the pendulum swung, swung so [00:08:00] far towards the commercial for Ella, the ge, that it just, it. They were always thinking about, or it seemed from an outsider's point of view, right, that they were always thinking about, how can I get the easiest dollar today without really thinking about, okay, five 10 steps in the future, what's going to happen to my business model? Like, will this be sustainable? It did Just, I don't know, it seems to me like just letting go of so many engineers and just going, I know Rosie, you mentioned a couple of podcasts ago about how they just kept on going from like Gen A to Gen B, to Gen C, D, and then it just, without really solving any problems initially. Like, it, it, it was just. It's difficult for me to think that nobody in those leadership positions thought about what was gonna happen in the [00:09:00]future.  Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. I think it was about day-to-day survival. 'cause I was definitely there like saying, you know, there's too many, um, technical problems that Yeah. When I was saying that a hundred, a hundred of versions of me were all saying that, a lot of us were saying it. Just in the cafeteria amongst ourselves. And a lot of us, uh, you know,

Terra-Gen's 238.5 MW project in Texas is now fully operational and the Philippines just awarded approvals for more than 10 GWs of renewables. Plus Nordex and Siemens Gamesa are optimistic about their future. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! There's news from the wind industry this week. And for once... the headlines tell a story of growth. Down in Hidalgo County, Texas... something worth celebrating happened this week. Terra-Gen commissioned the Monte Cristo ONE Windpower Project. Two hundred thirty-eight-point-five megawatts. Fully operational. The wind facility will generate more than 850 gigawatt-hours of clean electricity every year. Enough to power roughly 81,000 homes. And the power? Already sold. Long-term purchase agreements with two corporate customers. Construction created about 280 jobs at peak activity. More than 490,000 work hours. Not one lost-time incident. They upgraded 11 miles of state roads. Twenty-five miles of county roads. Over its lifetime... the project will deliver more than 100 million dollars to the local community. Property taxes. Landowner payments. Other economic contributions. "It is an honor," said John O'Connor, Chief Financial Officer for Terra-Gen, "to celebrate the hard work and dedication of the hundreds of men and women who made the commissioning of the Monte Cristo wind project possible." Meanwhile... halfway around the world in the Philippines... the government just awarded approvals for more than 10 gigawatts of renewable power. That's ten-point-two gigawatts, to be exact. One hundred twenty-three winning bidders. Solar. Storage. And wind. Onshore wind alone claimed two-point-five gigawatts of that capacity. Twenty-one projects. All set to deliver power by 2029. The Philippines is targeting 50 percent renewable generation by 2040. And they're not waiting around. The "overwhelming response," said the department of energy, "reflects the growing confidence of investors." Back in Europe... in Germany... Nordex is making moves. The turbine manufacturer just secured orders for 123 megawatts from Denkerwulf. Twenty-five onshore wind turbines. Installation begins in 2027. Commissioning in 2028. And Nordex shares? They're climbing. Hit a multi-year high this week. Trading at 28 euros and 2 cents. Denkerwulf'S orders for Nordex in 2025 now total nearly 144 megawatts. And last week... Mingyang signed a contract with ORE Catapult... a state-owned British test center. They're going to test main bearings for Mingyangs offshore 18.5MW turbines in the United Kingdom. "A major milestone," said Mingyang'S chief technology officer for Europe, Marc Sala. "A decisive breakthrough for our local operations." Mingyang has big plans for Britain. One-point-five billion pounds in investments. Half for factories. Half for the offshore wind supply chain. Now... over at Siemens Gamesa... things are looking up. The wind business has been struggling. Over four fiscal years... losses totaled eight-point-six billion euros. But Chief Executive Officer Christian Bruch confirmed this week... they're still targeting profitability by 2027. Break-even by 2026. Revenue for full-year 2025 rose 5 percent to ten-point-three-seven-five billion euros. Losses improved slightly. "The journey towards profitability is going to take time," said Chief Financial Officer Maria Ferraro. "But I think the team is doing a great job." They expect a positive fourth quarter in 2026. So there you have it. The wind industry is pushing forward. Two hundred thirty-eight-point-five megawatts commissioned in Texas. One hundred twenty-three projects approved in the Philippines. One hundred twenty-three megawatts ordered in Germany. Eighteen-point-five megawatt turbines heading to Britain for testing. And Siemens Gamesa ... now seeing light at the end of the tunnel. The numbers tell the story. Things are beginning to stabilize – and there’s hope for the future. That’s the state of the wind industry on the 17th of November 2025. Join us tomorrow for the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.

Morten Handberg, Principal Consultant at Wind Power LAB, joins the show to discuss the many variables within wind turbine blades that operators may not be aware of. From design to materials and operation, understanding your blades is crucial to making informed decisions in the field. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind. Energy's brightest innovators. This is the progress Powering tomorrow. Allen Hall: Morten, welcome back to the program.  Morten Handberg: Thank you so much, Allen. It's fantastic to be back. It's, uh, I really, really happy to be back on the show to discuss blades with you guys.  Allen Hall: So you're a resident blade whisperer, and we wanted to talk about the differences between types of blades even within the same manufacturer, because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding if I buy a specific OEM turbine that I'm getting the same design all the time, or even just the same basic materials are that are used. That's not the case anymore.  Morten Handberg: No, I mean, there's always been variations. Uh, so the B 90 is a very good example because initially was, was released with, uh, with the, with the glass fiber spark cap. [00:01:00] But at later iterations it was, then they then switched it to carbon fiber for, for, for larger, for larger turbines, for higher rated power. But it, it, but it sort of gave that you were not a hundred percent sure. When you initially looked at it, was this actually a ca a glass fiber, uh, beam or a carbon fiber was only when you started to learn the integral, you know, what, what to read in, in the naming convention that you could understand it. But it caused a little confusion about, you know, I'm looking at glass fiber blade or, or a carbon fiber blade. So it's been there for a while, but we're seeing it more and more pronounced with, um. Uh, OEMs changing to signs, uh, or OEMs merging together, but keeping their integral design for, for, for various purposes. And then for the, for the, for the people, not in, uh, not in the loop or not looking behind the curtain. They don't, you don't know, know, know the difference. So I think it's really important that we, that we sort of highlight some of those things to make it easier for people to, to, to know, to know this. Allen Hall: There was a generational change. [00:02:00] Uh, even in the 1.5 megawatt class. There were some blades that were fiberglass and then they, there was a trend to move to carbon fiber to make them lighter, but then the designers got better and started putting fiberglass in, where now you have 70 meter blades that are fiberglass worth 35 meter blades, may have had carbon. Yeah, it's hard to keep up with it.  Morten Handberg: You know, it's really difficult to know. I mean, for, for, for the longer blades, it's becoming more and more pronounced that they will be, uh, there will be carbon fiber reinforced. But a good, uh, example of where it doesn't really apply is actually with, uh, with Siemens cesa. Because if you look at Siemens, Cade said, you know, it's, it's Siemens, uh, the original OEM Siemens at the original OEM Cade that merged. Quite a few years back, but you know, we still see the very sharp, uh, difference between the two different designs because whenever you install a Siemens Esso turbine offshore, it's the Siemens integral blade, it will. And, and they kept that, [00:03:00] uh, and that blade is produced in one cast, it's called the Integral Blade because that's their inherited design. And there are no adhesive bond blinds in that. Uh, so all laminated is consolidated. It's all cast in one go, and then whatever kings and small, uh, defects there, then repaired on factory before they ship offshore. These are pure glass fiber plate that has not changed at all. So that's sort of the, uh, how do you say, uh, the one that, that, uh, that is outside the norm that we see today. But the Gaza part of it, they, they've kept for onshore purposes, they kept their design using, uh, adhered shells or adhered bond lines. So they would have two, uh, share webs and then two shells, uh, that are then, that are then, then, uh, glued together, uh, at the bond lines, on the share, on the trading edge, and on the leading edge. With carbon re, re reinforcement. Um, so that is a massive different design within one [00:04:00] OEM and often when people say, well, we have a problem with the Siemens commes blade, which one? Uh, so then it's very, very important to understand, you know, what blade type, you know, what, what, what turbine model it is because then we can pretty easily drive it, or even for just know the wind farm because. If it's offshore, we pretty much, you know, we can, we, we know already. We just need to know the what, what, what size of turbine is, and derive what blade type it is. Onshore becomes a bit more pro problematic because then you need to know, you know, at what, when was it erected, because then, you know, it can be both, but. If you don't know, then it will just be presented as a Siemens cesa. So it's really important to keep, uh, in check, uh, when, when, when, when, when looking at that. So that's a, so that's a very important distinction that, that we need, need to understand when the child, when determining blade damages,  Allen Hall: right, because the type of damage, the integral blade would suffer really completely different than the sort of the ESA bonded design. I was looking at blades in Oklahoma recently that were integral from like a two megawatt machine, and it, it [00:05:00] looks completely different when you walk up to that blade. You can tell that it's cast in one piece. It's very interesting to see, but that makes it, I think the, the thing about those blades is that it's a little more manufacturing cost to, to make 'em that way, but. They are, uh, tend to be a little more rugged out in service, right?  Morten Handberg: Well, they're, they're definitely heavier because of the, the manufacturing process that they go through. Um, they're more robust. We, I think we can, we can, we can see that from a track record, uh, in general. Um, but they're, but the trade off is that they are a lot, they're heavier. So that means that the, that the components that are used in the Drivetrain Tower Foundation, they're equally heavier. So you pay the price in the, uh, in the cost of the turbine. But, uh, overall on the, on the mainland side, we do see less, at least some structural damages and if something really bad happens, so, uh, the trailing edge more often, not it's kept to the, to the tip or on that part of the trailing edge. So, so, uh, so [00:06:00] the, the, the blade structure keeps together better, um, because of this consolidation of the laminates. Allen Hall: Right, and the, the traditional ESA design, I'll call it, has been a bonded design for a long time. The issue with bond lines is there is no peel ply stoppage, so there's no fasteners in it, in case it starts to come apart, it'll continue to peel, and that's what we typically call a banana peel when it really goes bad. The blade splits in two. Once it starts, it really doesn't have a way to stop. And I think that's why inspection is so important on those bonded blades. Right?  Morten Handberg: Yeah. Actually, 1, 1, 1 1, 1, 1 small thing. Uh, peel ply is actually something that's used in laminate production to, uh, to you apply it when you're casting, you laminate typically for repair. Then when you peel it off. The surface is fresh and clean, and then you can, you can continue working it, adding more, more mobilely or, or new coating. So it removes some, uh, lamination or some grinding process that will otherwise be needed, has no structural purpose in it, [00:07:00] uh, just to kill that myth of, but you're right. Uh, when you have an adhere blade for any, for any manufacturer, for any purpose. If you have a, uh, if you have a deep bonding that starts, then it can, it can, depending on the location, it can grow really fast because you don't have the same consolidation. You do have some bike layers that would add over, but it doesn't have the same integral strength that you would see with the, uh, with the consolidated laminate. Allen Hall: So that's a big difference. And if you're looking at blades, and if you haven't. Looked inside of a hub and looked inside the blade. You, you may not even know. And I think that does happen to a lot of engineers that they, because they, they're dealing with a thousand blades a lot of times the blade engineers, it's crazy what they're asked to go do. You just can't know all the details all the time. But just knowing these top level things can really help you suss out like where to start. And, and, and even on the inspection res regimes would on an integral blade type design, are you doing different kinds of inspections than you would do on a standard kind of. Mesa bonded up design?  Morten Handberg: I would [00:08:00] say not actually. I mean, you would still, you would still do, uh, you, you'll still do internal inspections because, um, you can still have defect developing. They would be, uh, slower, uh, growing in general, um, compared to a, uh, to a more thin skin laminate, uh, type blade. But, but the inspection methodology is, is more, less the same. You would do an external inspection to check for lighting damages wearing of, uh, coating. So erosion. Any kind of structural damage in developing over the shell, uh, surfaces.