#714: A Glimpse of the Future: Electroceuticals for 70%–90% Remission of Depression, Brain Stimulation for Sports Performance, and De-risking Ibogaine for TBI/PTSD

Brought to you by Nordic
Naturals Ultimate Omega fish oil,
Eight Sleep’s Pod Cover sleeping
solution for dynamic cooling and heating, and
AG1 all-in-one nutritional
supplement.


Welcome to a very special episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, an
episode that might be an example of peeking around corners and
catching a glimpse of the future of mental health treatments in
the next five to ten years.


My guest is Nolan Williams, MD
(@NolanRyWilliams). Nolan is an associate professor within the
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford
University School of Medicine and director of the
Stanford Brain Stimulation Lab. He has a broad
background in clinical neuroscience and is triple board certified
in general neurology, general psychiatry, and behavioral
neurology and neuropsychiatry. Themes of his work include
examining spaced learning theory and neurostimulation techniques,
development and mechanistic understanding of rapid-acting
antidepressants, and identifying objective biomarkers that
predict neuromodulation responses in treatment-resistant
neuropsychiatric conditions.


Nolan specializes in looking at cutting-edge treatments
and new technologies that can be applied to treatment-resistant
psychiatric disorders—so, treatment-resistant depression,
disorders that are notoriously difficult to address, such as OCD,
and many others.


Nolan's work resulted in an FDA clearance for the world's first
noninvasive, rapid-acting neuromodulation approach for
treatment-resistant depression. And I've tested this myself, and
we get into this in the conversation. He has published papers in
Brain, American Journal of Psychiatry, and Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences. Results from his studies have
gained attention in Science and NEJM Journal Watch. He has
received two NARSAD Young Investigator Awards, the Gerald L.
Klerman Award, and the National Institute of Mental Health
Biobehavioral Research Award for Innovative New Scientists.


We also discuss things like ibogaine that are seemingly unrelated
to neuromodulation, as Nolan is very well-versed in multiple
disciplines and in multiple toolkits, both pharmacological and
non-invasive neuromodulatory. It's this combination, actually,
this rare Venn diagram, that makes him incredibly interesting to
me. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think it is very
important, highly tactical, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I
did.


*


This episode is brought to you
by Nordic Naturals, the
#1-selling fish-oil brand in the US! More than 80%
of Americans don’t get enough omega-3 fats from their diet. That
is a problem because the body can’t produce omega-3s, an
important nutrient for cell structure and function. Nordic
Naturals solves that problem with
their doctor-recommended Ultimate Omega fish-oil
formula for heart health, brain function, immune support, and
more. Ultimate Omega is made exclusively from 100%
wild-caught sardines and anchovies. It’s incredibly pure and
fresh with no fishy aftertaste. All Nordic Naturals’ fish-oil
products are offered in the triglyceride molecular form—the form
naturally found in fish, and the form your body most easily
absorbs.


Go to Nordic.com and discover why Nordic Naturals is the
#1-selling omega-3 brand in the U.S. Use
promo code TIM for 20% off your order of Ultimate Omega.


*


This episode is also brought to you
by Eight
Sleep! Eight
Sleep’s Pod Cover is
the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect
temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with
biometric tracking to offer the most advanced (and user-friendly)
solution on the market. Simply add the Pod Cover to
your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as
hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner
can choose a totally different temperature.


Conquer this winter season with the best in sleep tech and sleep
at your perfect temperature. Many of my listeners in colder areas
enjoy warming up their bed after a freezing day. Go
to eightsleep.com/Tim and
save $250 on the Pod Cover by Eight Sleep this
winter. Eight Sleep currently ships within the
USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and
Australia. 


*


This episode is also brought to you
by AG1! I
get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement,
what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1, my all-in-one
nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour
Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best
with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG1 further
covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced
micronutrients that support gut health and the immune
system. 


Right now, you’ll get a 1-year supply of Vitamin D
free with your first subscription purchase—a vital
nutrient for a strong immune system and strong
bones. Visit DrinkAG1.com/Tim to
claim this special offer today and receive your 1-year supply of
Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first
subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year
supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious
and comprehensive daily, foundational nutrition supplement that
supports whole-body health.


*


[00:00] Start


[07:49] How SAINT helped Deirdre Lehman.


[13:59] Typical vs. atypical sequences of activation.


[21:00] Psychiatry 1.0, 2.0, 3.0.


[26:41] How SAINT (Stanford Accelerated Intelligent
Neuromodulation Therapy) came to be.


[34:00] TMS vs. ECT.


[35:26] Rewards and risks of shortening treatment timeframe.


[43:43] Numbers treated and common side-effects.


[46:32] Patient demographics.


[49:51] Where to find current open trials.


[51:01] Observed benefits of SAINT over more conventional
treatments.


[52:45] Adapting treatment when symptoms prove misleading.


[58:03] SAINT remission numbers versus those of alternative
therapies.


[1:02:50] Delayed remission speculation.


[1:07:06] How Nolan became The Ibogaine Bachelorette.


[1:11:37] The origin of Nolan’s interest in ibogaine.


[1:12:40] Amazing results of the quickest-recruiting study Nolan
has ever run.


[1:15:19] Dealing with alexithymia and self-reporting
inaccuracies in research.


[1:19:41] Ibogaine research gets federal funding (approved since
this conversation took place)!


[1:21:09] Isolating the ibogaine effect.


[1:21:49] The value of life review on ibogaine.


[1:25:56] How ibogaine differs from other psychedelic treatments.


[1:30:05] The challenge behind synthesizing naturally occurring
compounds.


[1:31:54] Coping with ibogaine’s cardiac risks.


[1:39:37] Understanding habitual action through ibogaine,
Ozempic, caffeine, and alcohol.


[1:45:43] Ibogaine for TBI.


[1:50:08] Ibogaine for alleviating opioid withdrawal symptoms.


[1:51:34] Ibogaine in Kentucky.


[2:00:59] Weighing ethics with potential outcomes in research.


[2:04:31] Can ibogaine be sourced (or synthesized) sustainably?


[2:08:24] Does 5-MeO-DMT complement ibogaine enough to justify
its collection?


[2:16:48] What might Psychiatry 4.0 look like?


[2:25:12] Could we develop therapies to change hand dominance?


[2:28:08] Boosting performance.


[2:34:01] Parting thoughts.


*


For show notes and past guests
on The Tim Ferriss Show,
please
visit tim.blog/podcast.


For deals from sponsors of The Tim
Ferriss Show, please
visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors


Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday)
at tim.blog/friday.


For transcripts of episodes, go
to tim.blog/transcripts.


Discover Tim’s
books: tim.blog/books.


Follow Tim:


Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss 


Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss


YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss


Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss 


LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss


Past guests on The Tim Ferriss
Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh
Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin
Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew
McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth
Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah
Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine
Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary
Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael
Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold
Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria
Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de
Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly
Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard
Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael
Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan
Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit
Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim
Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval
Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth
Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard
Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid
Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick
Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren
Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter
Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah
Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.


See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California
Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.