Implementing Proper Fall Protection with David Kozlowsky

Falls in the workplace are one of the leading causes of serious
injuries and fatalities.  Citations around the OSHA
standards for fall protection have made the top 10 most
frequently cited OSHA standards for the last decade.


Fall hazard exposures exist in almost every industry and finding
the right fall protection solution for your situation is not
always easy.  There are many factors that should go into
making the right choice.


On this episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast, I speak with
David Kozlowsky, President and Owner of Safe Approach in Poland,
Maine about his company and the approach they take with fall
protection and prevention.


 


Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and
welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter
Koch, five thousand four hundred and twenty four. According to a
February twenty sixth article in Safety and Health, that's the
number of violations or citations in 2020 alone for the OSHA Fall
Protection General Requirement standard for construction. And
that standard sits at the top of the OSHA top 10 most frequently
cited standards for the last 10 years, believe it or not. And if
you looked at all the other fall protection related citations
listed on the OSHA top 10 like scaffolding ladders and the fall
protection training citations, you would get nearly 12000
citations related to fall protection alone for the year 2020. And
if we look at beyond citations and look at injuries and how they
affect people. Falls, even if you exclude falls on [00:01:00] the
same level and just falls from one level to another, so falls
from a height. That's one of the leading causes for serious
injury and fatalities in the workplace. There are fall hazards in
almost every industry or business. And personally, whether it's
scaffolding, ladders, anchors, personal fall arrest systems, rope
access or rescue. Fall protection training and education make up
a huge part of what I do with the businesses that I work with.
Well, we wanted to bring on an expert in fall protection to the
podcast. So on the line with me today is David Kozlowsky,
president and owner of Safe Approach in Poland, Maine. So led by
David Safe Approache's team designs and builds a fall protection
equipment and harnesses, anchors and lifelines, everything from
that to safety netting and custom fall protection, worksite
solutions. So, David, welcome to the podcast today.


David Kozlowsky: [00:01:52] Thanks, Peter. Glad
to be here.


Peter Koch: [00:01:54] Yeah, it's fantastic to
have you. You know, I've had the pleasure of working with Safe
Approach during my time [00:02:00] here at MEMIC. And the team
there has always been able to offer some sage advice, as well as
design some custom solutions for a number of the policyholders
that I've been working with. I think it's an important part of
the story to get a little to know, get to know you a little bit
more and about the company, because instead of jumping right
into, again, right into the fall protection side of things and
why it's important, I think it's important to know what your
history is. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your
background and the company's background and how you got to where
you are today?


David Kozlowsky: [00:02:30] Sure. Thanks, Peter.
So the company was founded or conceived anyway? I would say right
around 1988 ish, the previous owner, Roger, owned a business
called Mobile Maintenance, which was kind of like a mobile mill
writing maintenance type thing where he would go around to mills
or various places and do work on site things that were difficult,
either too large or too difficult to actually send out to be
repaired. He would go [00:03:00] and had a truck with a lot of
machine type tools and stuff and would just go around. And he was
actually at a repair job in the town of Lisbon back around
1988ish. And while they were working around an open wet well
either he or one of the guys there almost fell in. And so someone
made the comment like, oh man, you know, somebody should put a
net in this thing or something because it's 30 feet to the, you
know, to the pump. And we all know what's at the bottom of a
sewage pump station. So to add insult to injury, I guess so here
they're like somebody should make a net for this thing or
something. And so that's kind of how it was conceived.
Incorporated in 1992, brought on some distributors and kind of
launched the company from there. So from its very inception, the
whole premise of the company was on innovation [00:04:00] and
finding ways to help people work safer. As our logo says,
sometimes something off the shelf or out of the box just doesn't
cut it. And it's easy to have a catalog of, hey, here's my
repertoire of harnesses and lanyards or whatever else I sell.
But, you know, there's countless different situations that you
run into in business where just something out of the box just
doesn't cut it. It's not there. And so the company was conceived
on that that principle and that concept. And so we've kind of
gone from there since 1992. I came on to the company in 1998. I
was young. I was twenty five years old. I really didn't know
anything about fall protection or anything else, but spent the
last 22 years kind of learning my way through it. And I really
feel like I'm kind of a  [00:05:00]example that the American
Dream is still alive. I started at twenty five, I didn't know
anything, but I was willing to learn and willing to work and
started out in the shop basically getting dirty, working with my
hands, learning how to make stuff, and then kind of from there
graduated to turning some wrenches in the field and into sales.
And then, you know, ultimately at one point basically being the
general manager and kind of running the company. And now here I
am. Twenty two years later and I own the business. So it's kind
of a neat little story. You know, it's still can happen. People
say the American dream isn't alive, but it's there. If you're
willing to work hard and you're willing to learn and you're
willing to pay your dues. And I think a lot of people don't know
the term paying your dues anymore. If you're willing to do it,
it's still there. You can do it. So here we are.


Peter Koch: [00:05:57] Yeah, that's pretty cool
because it's a great story when I [00:06:00] kind of think about
it, because you back in 88, there weren't a lot of guidelines. I
mean, the fall protection standard was there for OSHA and they
told you a bunch of stuff. But I think there's a really great
connection there where you said not every out-of-the-box solution
is going to work every place. And that's a key part that I talked
to policyholders all the time about, well, you know, here you're
not following the standards for fall protection like you've got a
fall protection exposure right there. How come you're not putting
something into that? He said, well, the typical harness solution
gets in the way or the horizontal lifeline solution that we could
get from the Amazon catalog isn't going to work within this
particular space or area. And being innovative around those fall
protection solutions, I think is a key part. And it's a great way
because you really had to understand what your what the exposures
were and then what the company [00:07:00] needed. Not safe
approach, but the company you're working with, what they needed
in order to make the job not only safe but productive. And I
mean,


David Kozlowsky: [00:07:09] I think you're
right, Peter. You have to really understand No. One, what OSHA's
just telling you about, what are the regulations, No. One that
you have to follow. And coming up with solutions within those
regulations can still be out of the box without, you know, going
through some of the traditional methods. You know, one of the
things that we've worked on a lot is safety netting and safety
netting is just one of those things that there's not a lot of
stuff written on it. And you can be very creative and still
follow the standards and the guidelines in the spirit of the law
that they're giving you. That's where the original product came
from. The Hatch ness, that was the first thing. I mean, it was
taking something that was not traditionally considered a fall
item and turning it into something, [00:08:00] testing it and
certifying it and turning it into something. And that was in its
infancy. I mean, harnessess weren't even body belts weren't
outlawed until nineteen ninety six. I mean so back in, you know
when I started it's like it was still kind of in its infancy
regulatory wise. And so we carried that, you know, that desire to
to be innovative and creative and help people find solutions to
stuff, you know, all the way through to today.


Peter Koch: [00:08:29] And it is funny how you
still find some I don't call it older or maybe it's a traditional
understanding about fall protection. Like you said, like body
belts weren't outlawed until 1996. But you still find him
someplace. You'll go different places and you'll still find
people that have that particular tool in their toolbox of
solutions that they'll put in place somewhere. And it doesn't
really fit. So there's a lack of knowledge in some cases out
there. I think OSHA has done a great job at educating [00:09:00]
the businesses out there about what is appropriate. But it's a
passive type of education that people need to want to get it. And
in your case, too, I think I find that when someone approaches
you, at least when I've worked with safe approach in the past,
there's been an exchange of education. Like you're you're looking
for information about what the exposures are, what the workplace
looks like, where I'm willing to go. And then you're also taking
that and educating me about, well, you know, the solution that
you might think is going to work isn't going to work for these
reasons. And here is how it fits within the standard. So that
education about what's good, what's out there, what's functional,
and then why is a big part about what makes safe approach pretty
special and then how some of their solutions or some of your
solutions work well within the workplace?


David Kozlowsky: [00:09:55] Well, there's many
different levels of education that takes [00:10:00] place when we
go on a site visit. You know, as you mentioned, it's not always
just, you know, what are the standards and how do I apply them to
this situation? You know, and even in today's day and age,
there's still a certain amount of education that takes place to
get people convinced that they actually need it, that they
actually should have it. I mean, I can't tell you how many times
I tell people fall protection is like purchasing an insurance
policy. It's one of those things that you hope you never need.
And you might come to me and say, well, I've worked around this
open hatch for 30 years and I've never fallen in. And I would
say, well, if I was an auto insurer, you'd be a bad risk because
they the numbers show you're going to probably get in an accident
at some point. And if you've been here for 30 years and you
haven't yet, there's a good chance you're going to. So just
educating [00:11:00] people that, you know, you're not
necessarily protecting for the everyday mundane tasks you're
protecting for that one in a million shot, that one. And, you
know, that thing that never could have happened. It just seems
like, oh, this was a one in a million chance. But if that's that
one time you're around an open hole and you know it's slippery
and you get tangled up in a cord and you turn to look at somebody
and you're doing three things at once. And next thing you know,
you lose your balance and fall in. And you've done it eight
thousand times and every time was perfect and you really don't
think you need it. But that one time you need it, you want it to
be there and educating people that just because you've done it a
million times doesn't mean that there's not some value to
protecting yourself.


Peter Koch: [00:11:50] And that is a really hard
lesson for some folks to swallow without having the experience of
having been the victim of that particular [00:12:00] scenario. It
happens both ways on my end. So I'll go into a company initially
and I'll identify uncontrolled fall hazards that companies have
and then on the other hand, I'll go in post accidents and do an
accident analysis and help them figure out why it occurred,
because someone fell because an unidentified fall hazard,
something that they didn't actually take care of. If I compare
those two experiences and I have the one company that hasn't had
an incident occur, whether it's an injury or just a near miss,
they're the ones that are typically harder to convince that you
need to put a solution in place. But the ones that have had it
happen and especially the ones where it's been, unfortunately, a
tragedy, they're the ones that really desire a solution. But it's
truly unfortunate that that is the impetus behind people being
gung ho about putting a force protection solution in. And you
[00:13:00] I think you describe it very well. It's like an
insurance policy. So if you put it in place and you maintain it
and you install it and you educate around it, then that exposure
that exists because of the job and there's no other way to manage
that risk. You put those fall protection tools in place. Now
you're helping to prevent the tragedy from happening and that's
that insurance policy. So that's a cool way of thinking about it,
really is.


David Kozlowsky: [00:13:27] That's exactly
right. I mean, that's what we're trying to educate people, is
that don't be the guy that calls me because you had somebody fall
off something and you already have an injury. It's like let's ,
you know, work with this ahead of time. But we've had enough. And
you can tell when that happens. I mean, there's been multiple
times where in the past during our history, you can tell when
you've gotten a call from somebody and you know that they had
somebody fall there's an you know, an incident and now they're
kind of in a panic [00:14:00] to come and, you know, put
something in place. And so we just try to educate people to show
them that they need it and in some cases show them that just
because you opened up, you know, a catalogue and you see
someone's, you know, list of harnesses and whatever, that just
because you don't see that doesn't mean that there isn't a
solution, that there's sometimes creative ways to come in and fix
problems.


Peter Koch: [00:14:29] Yeah, let's diverge a
little bit, I think this would be an interesting time to talk
about this particular topic. And let's talk a little bit about
the hierarchy of controls and how it can be used to address fall
protection, because I think a lot of people and maybe not some of
the folks who are listening to this podcast, because, you know,
if you're a safety person, if you were in charge of safety for
your company, you don't always or you're not going to start at
personal protective equipment as the end all be all for your fall
[00:15:00] protection solution. But a lot of folks, that's what
they jump to. I want a harness. I want a lanyard and I want an
anchor. And when I put that in place, I'm good to go. Boom, I've
checked the box. I'm safe. And that's not really where we want to
start. So let's can you talk a little bit about maybe the
hierarchy, like from elimination to engineering and
administrative controls to fall protection and how that fits in
with your process of coming up with a solution?


David Kozlowsky: [00:15:27] Sure. I mean, when
we go to a facility or go to look at a situation, you know, the
hierarchy is to No. One to try to engineer out the fall to begin
with. If you have a situation where there is a fall hazard, you
want to try to look for solutions that engineer that out. So
maybe it's a guardrail or something of that nature to take a
situation where there is not an opportunity for a person to fall.
So that would be at the most preferred [00:16:00] level. And you
go down from there to kind of what is in the middle we call kind
of a restraint type model where, OK, we can't really engineer out
the fall. This isn't an application where we can, you know, put
up a bunch of guardrails or put something to prevent people. But
we could set up maybe some type of restraint system where you
could use fall protection or PPE type equipment to prevent
somebody from being able to get to the edge. And then finally,
the honestly, what should be the last on the list. As you
mentioned, a lot of people jump to first, but which should be
last on the list, should be actual fall arrest. But then within
that, once you've gone to a facility where, OK, we've ruled out
the other opportunities. So we can't engineer out the fall. We
can't prevent somebody from getting to the edge. We've determined
that we actually do need [00:17:00] some type of fall arrest
system. I would say we spend the most amount of time working
within this kind of subcategory and that's educating people, the
limitations of fall arrest and what you can and can't do with it
and when it's appropriate to have something or not, you know, it
happens all the time. I'll give you one example without naming
any company names or anything. But a number of years ago, I was
asked to come in and look at a situation where they had some
concrete tanks that they were working on, those precast concrete
tanks. And so the tanks were not overly large. They were only
about seven or eight feet tall and they had to get on the top of
these tanks to work on them. And they called us in and said, hey,
listen, we've got this building and we want to put a cable up
here so we can, you know, tie off while we're on these tanks. And
after a rather long discussion, I basically [00:18:00] tried to
educate them, say, listen, this isn't the right application. No.
One, this building is extremely old. It's barely engineered to
the snow load. I'm surprised it hasn't collapsed yet, much less
attaching fall protection to the roof. But you're lucky to be
maintaining the snow load in this region with this old prefab
building. And you want to string a cable between them and you're
only going to be eight feet off the floor. And by the time
somebody falls off and the cable stretches out in the lanyard
stretches out and all this happens, the person is going to hit
the floor long before my system even catches you or arrest the
fall. This isn't the right application. You need to do this. But
that wasn't the cheapest alternative. And, you know, it was it
was sad to see them go and purchase a couple of beam clamps and a
cable and put it up there so that if anybody walked through, they
could look up and say, [00:19:00] oh, see, we have our fall
protection it's in place. We're doing what I supposed to be. But
it doesn't necessarily mean it's working. And I would say, you
know, going through the hierarchy is one thing, but spending time
on helping people find something that's proper and works like
it's supposed to is where I would definitely say we spend the
majority of our time.


Peter Koch: [00:19:25] This is one of the
reasons why I liked working with you guys in the past, because.
You will spend the time to do the education about a particular
propered solution or proffered solution and whether or not the
company decides to go with you to purchase the solution that
you're recommending for them to put in place, you're still going
through the process of educating them and why this is a good spot
and not just, hey, here it is. This is this is what's going to
work for you. Put it in place or don't put it in place. Whatever
you want. You really want to see people succeed. And I think
[00:20:00] just from having some conversations with you and
knowing the team is there's a real desire within safe approach to
not have people hit the ground. I mean, you go back to 1988 and
Roger and putting that net in place, I mean, the mentality around
many places would have been, well, don't get so close to the edge
and you won't fall. Right. Not to think about putting a net in
place and and building on that. I think that is a philosophy that
kind of flows through safe approach that you really you don't
want to see anybody hit the deck. So education's part of that.
And determining the right solution is part of that.


David Kozlowsky: [00:20:39] It's a tough thing
to do to walk into a place and not sell somebody something
because what they're wanting to do isn't going to work. It's easy
to walk in and say, OK, well, I'll take your money. And here,
here's a system. And meanwhile, you know, 10 years down the road,
somebody [00:21:00] falls and it fails or doesn't work like it's
supposed to. I mean, it's a tough thing to do to sometimes go in
there and have to tell people that. But the other side of that is
that we've been really successful and really good at coming in
and helping people find what would work and helping people, you
know, come up with solutions that sometimes are a little bit out
of the ordinary or out of the box, to use a cliche. But that's
you know, we've been really good at that over the years. And I
think that's what's helped us succeed, is working with people to
come up with those solutions.


Peter Koch: [00:21:39] Yeah, for sure. Can you
talk a little bit about some of the fall protection challenges
that you've seen over the years that you talked about the one
with the concrete tanks? I'm sure that there are plenty of other
examples that you might be able to share with us. But I think
it's important for people to see that, you know, some of the fall
protection needs [00:22:00] aren't just on the construction site
or aren't just in a heavy industry like oil or mills, but it
exists in many different places. It could be hospitality, it
could be hotels, it could be office buildings, depending on what
you're doing. So could you share some of them? Maybe the fall
protection challenges that people have come to you with and maybe
some of the solutions that you've been able to offer?


David Kozlowsky: [00:22:25] Sure. That's one of
the unique things. You're right, Peter, about fall protection is
that it really touches so many different industries. I think a
lot of times people associate it with construction. So they you
know, they just think, oh, here's an iron worker, you know,
erecting steel. Well, obviously, he needs fall protection, but it
really touches almost every industry. We have customers that
range from semiconductor facilities, that make machines that make
semiconductors and people think, oh, electronics, 
[00:23:00]why do you need full protection for that? But, you
know, these are big machines, similar to what the concrete tanks
were, seven, eight feet tall. They're up there on the top of
them. They're building them and they're constructing them. And
they're in a room, a clean room maybe where there's limited
opportunities for tie off. Where can you connect to, you know,
limited space. And so, you know, that's a unique situation where
somebody might not expect that there would be a fall situation.
But there there was there was a really unique challenge. You had
a very low ceiling, very high machines, a clean room, very tight
tolerances for space. These machines were packed in here. It's
not like you could just be rolling guardrails around the room
and, you know, put them up. So on those type of things, the stuff
that we we look at, we did a job a couple of years ago for
actually the U.S. Capitol in Washington, DC. They did a dome
rehabilitation project and we put in a custom safety [00:24:00]
net that was a safety slash work platform that actually that
would suspend inside the interstitial space at the dome and allow
workers to actually clean the dome. They would actually climb in
it and and clean it. So, I mean, there's another example of kind
of a unique situation where not many people would think of. Then
there was the usual stuff. I mean, even what, you know, maybe we
would consider a run of the mill, but not so run of the mill is,
you know, even in construction, there's countless times that we
run into where we'll have let's take the stanchion, for example,
our bridge stanchions sell hundreds of them all over the country
with a couple of common dials. One clamps to a steel IBM, one can
bolt to concrete. Those are the two most common types of bridge
girders, right? Steel and concrete. But, you know, there's we
came [00:25:00] up with a solution a number of years ago for we
had a contractor that has some kind of oddly shaped box beams
that had no flanges on them. They weren't concrete, they were
steel, and they had no way to tie off. And honestly, the solution
was really something as simple as taking the stanchion that we
already had the to connect Lifeline's to, and engineering and
building a new kind of base that would have, you know, there
would be able to adapt to this type of beam. So it could be
anything from a, you know, a unique work situation to even just
something as mundane as, hey, we have a different type of
connection here. And everything that we've seen on the market
doesn't work. And you adapt something that you have to work with
this. So those are you know, those are the most common types of
things that we run into,


Peter Koch: [00:25:53] Again, thinking outside
the box, but sort of inside the box. Like, you don't have to
design something from scratch, but you can look [00:26:00] at a
particular situation, modify what you have in order to fit the
application, but still managed to fit it within the standards
that you have to meet in order for it to be certified for fall
protection.


David Kozlowsky: [00:26:15] Sure. Yeah, right.
Exactly.


Peter Koch: [00:26:18] So that kind of leads to
another question here. Like if someone has a fall protection
problem like there, listen to this podcast and going, hey, you
know, I  we've been really lucky over here. And I'll give
you an example. We had working with a hospitality organization
that had a fairly sizable flat roof space that they had to get up
there and shovel all the time here in New England when we when we
have snow. So up in northern New England, we still have snow
somewhere through the wintertime. And even like this year, snow
has been throughout the country. Even Texas had snow this
particular year. So the flat roof, they you [00:27:00] know, they
didn't really see it as a fall protection hazard because for the
most of the time, they were not anywhere near the edge. But the
maintenance guys or the people that they hired to help with
maintenance were there shoveling the roof off. So they had to be
close to that particular edge all the time. And if the company
sees an issue like that, they could come to you and say, hey, we
need a solution. But I imagine that in your initial conversation
with those guys that you need some information that would help
you point in a direction for a solution. So if they're listening
like, hey, you know, we've got this pretty unique challenge or
maybe it's a mundane challenge, we just haven't been able to
figure it out. What are some things that you need to know as the
solution provider about a situation that would help you get an
idea of where you might need to go


David Kozlowsky: [00:27:56] There's a short
answer and a long answer to that question. And, [00:28:00] we'll
stick to somewhat the short answer for the purposes of this show.
But the short answer to that is, is there when you when you start
to get into this, you find that there really is no set of
standard questions that you run into because each situation is is
different. And, you know, I would take your example of a rooftop
situation and then coming up with a solution to that, we would
need to know things like, well, how big is the area that we're
trying to cover? Probably the most importantly, how, you know,
how many people do you want to put on the roof at one time?
Because the solution for well, I want to send one guy up there to
shovel off this. You know, this little hippogriff or something is
different than, you know, here we have a warehouse facility and I
need 30 guys up there shoveling the roof. The solutions are
different for those two applications. [00:29:00] So, you know,
you would want to know how many people you would have working up
there. Unfortunately, you need to know how much those people
weigh. That's a question nobody likes to ask. But I'm going to
tell you, this comes up more often than anything these days is
OSHA's limitations of, you know, the three hundred and ten pounds
fall protection. And while we do have gear that's ANSI rated for
higher than that, that is an important question that on.
Unfortunately, we ask a lot how many people how much do they
weigh and then what are they doing, how close to the edge or how
close to the fall hazard are they getting? What functions are
they performing while they're there? Those are types of generic
questions that I think apply to most any situation. And we would
do we would start there.


Peter Koch: [00:29:52] Yeah, that's a I think
it's a good list because it really does hit on all the hits on
all the cylinders to getting you thinking about. All right.
[00:30:00] So where what potential solution is there? Is it a
restraint device? Is it truly a fall arrest system or is it an
engineering solution where you can do all those will tend to lead
you to one way or the other. And if you don't ask those questions
and you just kind of look at through the catalog and like as the
business owner going, well, it looks like this might be the
solution you might put a solution in that actually adds more
hazards than an appropriate solution would.


David Kozlowsky: [00:30:32] Yeah, because those
questions would lead into other questions once you've established
the duties that they're performing and how many people and what
they're trying to accomplish, depending on the situation, those
questions lead into other questions like, well, how far we've
established that, you know, we need some fall protection here.
Well, how far could the person fall, you know, talking about the
tank situation, if you're [00:31:00] only six feet up, off of a
lower level, you know, a horizontal lifeline with a shock
absorber lanyard attached to it is probably not the right
solution. It might not be the right solution, even if you're 20
feet above a lower level, depending on how you're tying off and
what you're doing. So those questions lead into other questions
like how far is the fall distance? Are there any hazards below
the fall area that we should take into consideration? And then
ultimately that leads into which, again, this is way deeper than
we probably have time for today. But OK, so they we've engineered
a solution and a person fell off. How do we get them down? You
have the fall clearance, you have all the gear you need and
everything is lined up, except that there's no conceivable way of
getting the person down in the amount of time that you have. So
you end up saying, OK, we for that reason, we actually [00:32:00]
need to engineer out the fall. You can't have someone fall here
because you're never going to be able to get them down or get
them out, especially in the case of, say, like a confined space
entry where there's only one way in and one way out and you don't
have the ability for a couple of firefighters to come in with a
stretcher and put you on it and carry you out. And so the rescue
and retrieval aspect of it is another important thing that we
usually would hit on. Again, leading into the basic questions
would lead into those depending on the situation.


Peter Koch: [00:32:38] Let's take a quick break.
In 2018, 320 of the 1008 construction related fatalities were
attributed to falls. If you're listening to this podcast before
May 3rd, of 2021, then you still have a chance to participate.
The eighth annual national safety stand down to prevent falls and
construction [00:33:00] is happening from May 3rd through the 7th
of this year. If you're listening to it after you still have an
opportunity, a safety stand down is a voluntary event asking
employers to take a break and talk directly with their teams
specifically about safety. The stand down around fall protection
asks employers to talk specifically about fall hazards their team
is exposed to because fall hazards exist in almost every
industry. Think about ladders or roof maintenance and
scaffolding. MEMIC is asking that all employers take advantage of
the resources offered at www.OSHA.gov/stopfallsStanddown and talk
to your team about fall hazards. Even if you're not in the
construction business. If you're looking for more fall protection
resources to help you educate your staff or inspect your
workplace, check out the MEMIC safety director at
www.MEMIC.com/WorkplaceSafety. Now [00:34:00] let's get back to
today's episode.


Peter Koch: [00:34:04] It's a really, really
good point about rescue, and it's I think it's something that
does not get discussed enough when we talk about fall protection.
I had a client a number of years ago where I went to go to his
construction client building residential homes, and they were
building a house somewhere like, you know, township six, row 11.
So, you know, you don't have emergency facilities really close.
Like it's going to be an hour before someone can get to you if
you call nine one one, if you have reception on that day, like if
you're on the wrong side of the house, you're not going to get
reception. So we're looking at like three and a half stories on
the Walk-In basement side. And they're planning the roof process.
And it's like, well, what do you have for full protection of all?
We have the typical you know, they've got a rope grab and a
vertical lifeline and a temporary roof anchor and which would
work fine for most cases. But if he fell working by [00:35:00]
himself and he fell and there was any injury at all, he's not
coming down until his wife decides that. Well, it's been a little
longer than normal. Maybe I should call the bar first and then I
should try to find if he's still at the work site. And so from
then, like a fall arrest solution was not the solution that we
discussed. It was like, you really should get a piece of
machinery in here to do the work that you need to do because, you
know, you can get a lift up there. Of course, it's going to
probably cost you a little bit more. But if you do fall, the
result can be tragic and it's not really where you want to be. So
that's a it's a great point. I think people miss that that rescue
process because they never think that they're going to fall. They
just think most of the time that the fall protection solution is
there to check the box. And I'm never going to use it.


David Kozlowsky: [00:35:48] Yes. This goes back
to the insurance thing that we were talking about. Exactly. It's
I'm going to check the box. It's here. Yep. I did it. So I'm
protected. But you never expect that you're actually going to use
it, convincing [00:36:00] people to stop thinking in terms of
money, which unfortunately in private industry that I mean, that
is a very important topic. You just can't get around that.
There's not unlimited budgets for everything. But sometimes the
consequences of a fall or a serious injury could be life and
death when, you know, maybe spending just a few extra dollars on
the right solution or maybe a different solution would possibly
prevent that. So you're right.


Peter Koch: [00:36:29] Yeah. And I think another
part to consider, and I'm not sure if this sort of falls within
your wheelhouse within Safe Approach, but training for those
people who are going to be using the solution, whether it is an
engineered solution and understanding the limitations or a
restraint solution or a personal fall arrest solution. So
training of those people that are using it is pretty key. I know
I've had conversations when I go to companies that are using a
fall protection solution, regardless of what it is. [00:37:00]
And you talk to the employees and there's a certain level of
training that OSHA requires. And I like to think that there
should be a certain level of understanding for that individual
who is using that so that they understand what box they have to
work in


David Kozlowsky: [00:37:15] And they should be.
And that's one of the things that we that we talk about quite a
bit. So part of the survey process is discussing that very thing.
And this comes up very often in rooftop safety, as you were
talking about earlier. So sure, we spend we spend a very high
percentage of our time these days working on rooftop safety. And
the certainly the two most common solutions would be some type of
guardrail or some type of roof anchor or lifeline or fall arrest
type apparatus. And part of the discussion we invariably have is,
OK, so there's two different costs to this project. There's
[00:38:00] the upfront costs, the initial costs, the capital
expenditure of X amount of dollars for a full guardrail system or
a roof anchor or a lifeline system. And quite often, you know,
the guardrails get overlooked because it's more costly. The
capital expenditure is, you know, just more expensive upfront.
And people immediately want to go to. Let me just throw a couple
of cans up there and cable and call it good. And part of the
discussion invariably has to be the training that you were just
talking about and telling the customers, say, listen, if you put
the guardrails up there on the roof, they're set and forget you
go up, you put them up there. You can have unlimited people. You
can move around as much as you wish, and you don't have to
inspect them and certify them. And there's really no training
involved. Whereas if we put fall arrest up there, you're limited
to a certain number of people that however many people are
allowed to be on the [00:39:00] engineered into that system.
You're limited to the weight of the person, because part of the
engineering is the weight and the dynamic forces of the fall,
you're looking at training for every person that goes up there,
because we wouldn't recommend that you allow people to use an
active fall arrest system without, you know, having some training
and understand what you're doing. You're looking at an annual
inspection every year. You're looking at recertification every
five years because we don't want to just leave these up there and
then hope they're going to work 10 years down the road every five
years. You need some type of recertification. So there's all
these things that come after the fact that may or may not make it
your best solution, even though the cost may be less upfront and
the training that's involved in it may be one of those things
that might be a limiting factor for you, training all your users
and having roof sign off sheets and just covering [00:40:00]
yourself and coming up with a rescue plan.


Peter Koch: [00:40:03] Yeah, there's a lot more
to it, depending on what solution that you have. And you're
right, I always look at safety being kind of one of three things
that have to get managed within any company. People who have
heard this podcast before have heard me talk about it. And it's
not nothing new. It's safety, quality and productivity. So you
have all three of those things which have to be in balance in
order to be a successful company. And I joke all the time. I can
make you as safe as you'll never have an injury. You'll never get
anything done. Right. So I can  put safety first all the
time and you'll never have anything else happen because there's
you're preventing that person from engaging anywhere near that
particular exposure. And the exposure happens to be the job that
they need to do. Like, you can't be a sewage technician without
going into the hole you can't be a roofer without going up on the
roof. So you [00:41:00] have to have a balance in there so that
it fits. So you've got to find the solution that fits within that
safety, quality and productivity triangle. I think from a
different view standpoint is not putting safety at the top of the
triangle, like in productivity and quality or at the base. You
flip it around and you put that point at the bottom. So safety is
the thing that balances productivity and quality. And if you have
a good, robust safety program and think about that from the the
perspective of the scenario that you just proffered there with
the choice of guardrails versus a horizontal lifeline solution
that you have for people. Well, the horizontal lifeline solution
is good as long as you stay within your productivity demands for
what it's designed for, guaranteed you will have productivity,
demands that will exceed the design of that system, ike you will
need more people up there or you'll have [00:42:00] to have a
heavier person that gets up there. Something will exceed the
design of it. So if you think about safety as as the base right,
the guardrail on that particular piece will balance productivity
and quality much better than that horizontal lifeline would. So
having that robust safety program really fits within puts you in
a better position to have a safe and healthy and productive
workplace so.


David Kozlowsky: [00:42:25] Well, trying to
trying to balance risk with productivity and with investment. I
keep talking about the money aspect because it seems like it
comes up so often is that, you know, people want to spend money
on their businesses that do one of things. They either save them
time or save the money in productivity and safety. Let just be
honest. Very rarely does either of those things very rarely saves
you time on your project or labor. And it certainly doesn't save
you money unless, you know, there was a potential [00:43:00]
incident down the road. We could talk about opportunity cost for
a potential accident. We talk about that all day long. But, you
know, up front at least, you know, going back to the whole
insurance analogy, you're spending money on something that you
hope you never use. And if you're creative and use the term you
just did robust with your safety program and you spend, you know,
time managing it properly, it really doesn't have to have always
that big of an impact on what you do. If you're being creative in
spending the time to actually analyse the problem and come up
with a creative solution, it doesn't always have to cost a ton of
money and it doesn't always have to be so obstructive that it's
limiting the job that you do and you're not. There's certain
times where it does. I mean, you know, there's times where you
just can't get around that. [00:44:00] But that doesn't have to
be the norm. And that's partly what. We do we try to come in and
listen to customers concerns, listen to the, you know, the task
that they're doing, as I mentioned before, and find out who's
doing what and where and see what we can do to be as seamless as
possible to make it so that with as little impact on productivity
and bottom line cost, come in and try to make that person safe. I
mean, there is a hierarchy. I mean, let's get back to that
briefly. I mean, you know, OSHA never says that there is never
allowed to be any risk in a job. Certain jobs have risks. And so
it's not practical to take every job that's ever out there and
say, oh, there's absolutely zero risk of an injury or zero risk
of anything. Even OSHA doesn't realize that otherwise there would
be no such thing as fall arrest. Because, you know, quite
honestly, sometimes the act of falling and getting caught can
injure [00:45:00] you. I mean, there's a possibility that you can
get hurt during a fall. So I think if you just manage it
effectively, try to engineer out the fall whenever you can and
then when you can't spend some time to manage it effectively. And
I think you would find that not always does it really affect your
productivity and your bottom line as much as you maybe think it
does.


Peter Koch: [00:45:24] And I think that's a good
place to sort of come to a close here, because that is something
that is hugely beneficial to going to an expert like yourself to
talk through the different solutions and have an idea or get an
idea about how a particular solution might actually affect you
positively or possibly negatively, instead of just looking
through the file protection catalogue and finding the, you know,
fall compliance and a bucket in buying that and putting it out
there, it might not be the best solution. But sometimes that's
[00:46:00] the only resource that someone thinks they have. But
there are other resources out there. And I think safe approach
brings a good philosophy to understanding the problem and also to
developing a solution. So I want to throw this question at you
here as we come to a close. And this kind of goes back to what we
were talking about at the beginning in your history of just
coming into it cold into the fall protection process and learning
and taking chances and understanding and then finally getting to
the point where now you're the president and an owner of Safe
Approach. So if you go back to when you started, like, what do
you know now that you wish you had known when you started out
from a fall protection standpoint?


David Kozlowsky: [00:46:46] That's a really
tough question. No one's ever asked me that before. I mean, my
brain immediately goes to all of the knowledge that I've gleaned
over the years. And I [00:47:00] don't know if I have an
immediate answer to that. I would maybe have to think about it
some more. But when I first started out, you know, as I went
through the learning process, I know I put a lot of pressure on
myself to think that I had to be the be all end all to everybody
for everything, or they weren't going to call me or they weren't
going to trust me with anything. And maybe I guess to answer your
question, I think probably one of the biggest things I've learned
is that sometimes it's OK to tell somebody, you know, I don't
have a solution for that, or at least I don't have the right
solution for that. Or maybe I need to go think about it for a
while and come back. And just to be honest with people, not that
I was ever dishonest, but it was really hard in the beginning to
be OK with not knowing everything. And 22 years later, I don't
know everything. [00:48:00] And every day I learn something. And
it's you know, I think if you ever get to the point where you
think you know everything, that you don't know anything. And so
it's really just a matter of kind of I wish I could have gone
back and told myself, it's OK. It's OK to learn. Yes, fall
protection is important. Yes, people's lives are on the line. And
yes, you definitely need to take it seriously. But it's OK to not
know everything and it's OK to tell people when you don't know.
And I feel like people will trust you more if you tell them that
you don't know, rather than trying to pretend like you do know
everything.


Peter Koch: [00:48:37] I think that's actually
great advice. And especially in the fall protection realm, you
know, if you're just starting out in your own business as a
contractor or you come into a safety position and you're looking
at a particular situation to look at it and be OK with not
knowing, but also understanding that there are experts out there
that you can rely on or you can go to the help find [00:49:00]
the best solution. And it might not just be one expert. It might
be. A combination of maybe it's your insurance carrier and they
have a safety expert with expertise around the situation that
you're looking at, and maybe it's someone like yourself, David,
who works for a specialized company that deals with that
particular piece. So knowing where your resources are and being
comfortable in that tension of yeah, I think I should know, but I
don't know. And that's OK as long as I seek out the best solution
that's out there.


David Kozlowsky: [00:49:30] Smart people
surround themselves with other smart people because they realize
they don't know everything. They can't possibly know everything.
So you try to surround yourself with people that fill in the
blanks and fill in the gaps of what your skill set is. And even
myself, I know my skill sets. I know what I'm good at and what
I'm not good at. And I try to surround myself with people that
are good at things that I'm not good at. And so, you know, if
you're out there and you have a unique [00:50:00] situation or
you have, you know, a tough spot that you haven't tackled because
you just don't know what to do and maybe you do like I do and
procrastinate rather than tackle it, then you know what? Maybe,
you know, maybe just reach out to somebody for some help and say,
hey, let's I need to tackle this and I don't know what to do and
let somebody come in and give you a hand. And we can do that. We
can give you a hand. We work with you, too. We're not we're not
pushy. And we don't we don't come in and try to sell you a bunch
of stuff you don't need. We just try to come in and help. We
really do.


Peter Koch: [00:50:34] That's awesome. And you
set me up for this question. So where can our listeners find out
more about safe approach if they do have that question?


David Kozlowsky: [00:50:42] Sure. You can find
us on the Web, www.safeapproach.com, but certainly the phone I'm
old school. I like to get phone calls. So 800-471-1157. You can
give us a call. You're going to go to the website. And if you're
listening [00:51:00] to this podcast and you felt compelled to
call me, it's probably because you need something that's not on
our Web site. So it's a great resource. But if you go there and
you look at the same harnesses that you see in everybody else's
catalog, certainly pick up the phone, give us a call. You can
email me Davidk@safeapproach.com and we don't charge anything for
we're not consultants. So I don't, you know, charge people to
come out and do site surveys. Everything's related to solutions.
So, you know, we don't want to come out and, you know, charge you
for, you know, a site survey and give you reports and all that
stuff. But if you have a genuine solution that you need help
with, we don't charge anything. We come out, we'll give you give
you an honest look. And if we can come up with a solution, we
will present one.


Peter Koch: [00:51:54] Perfect, thanks. That's
awesome. David, I appreciate that. And I imagine you'll get a
couple of calls about [00:52:00] that.


David Kozlowsky: [00:52:01] Thanks for having
me.


Peter Koch: [00:52:01] Yeah, no problem. So that
about wraps up this week's Safety Experts podcast. And David,
again, I wanted to thank you for sharing your expertise with us.
And I'd like to have you back at some point in time, because
we've only really scratched the surface over the different types
of fall protection and the requirements that are out there. And
we haven't even really touched the standards that are out there
either. So if you're willing, I'd love to have you back on.


David Kozlowsky: [00:52:23] I would love to.
This is a lot of fun and yes, definitely any time.


Peter Koch: [00:52:27] Fantastic. So thanks
again for joining us. And to all of our listeners out there,
thank you. To today on the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast. We've
been speaking about fall protection basics with David Kozlowsky,
president and owner of Safe Approach in Poland, Maine. And if you
have any questions about fall protection or would like to hear
more about a particular topic on our podcast, email me at
podcast@MEMIC.com. Also, check out our show notes at
MEMIC.com/podcast, where you can find additional resources and
links to other podcasts, as well as our [00:53:00] entire podcast
archive. And while you're there, sign up for our Safety Net blog
so you never miss any of our articles or safety news updates. And
if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you took a
minute or two to review us on Stitcher, iTunes or whichever
podcast service that you found us on. And if you've already done
that, thanks, because that really helps us spread the word.
Please consider sharing this show with a business associate
friend or family member who you think will get something out of
it. And as always, thank you for the continued support. And until
next time, this is Peter Koch reminding you that listening to the
MEMIC Safety Experts podcast is good, but using what you learned
here is even better.