Moments Make the Leader with Patrick Nelson

In 2005 Patrick Nelson, while serving in the US Army paratroops,
had an experience that changed his life and his perspective on
being a leader.  Leadership, good or bad, is made up of
moments.  On this podcast, Patrick helps us see the impact
of those moments and how leaders can engage safety through story
telling.


 


Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and
welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter
Koch. It was a summer a while ago, and my wife Laura, pregnant
with our first daughter and I were traveling back from a quick
trip to visit my family and celebrate a birthday. It's about a
five hour drive one way, and we're like, we always do with family
trying to fit it in with an increasingly hectic work schedule. So
we had left late from my family's house and our ETA back to Maine
was somewhere around two a.m. and as was my habit, I was driving
and around two hours or so out from our home. Laura asked if I
wanted to take a break and have her drive. And I remember in the
moment choosing to tell her, nah I'm OK. And then she should go
ahead and catch some sleep so she would be all set for work in
the morning. Leading my family, right? I remember telling her
that, and then she asked me if I was sure and she had this look
on her face like, Are you really sure you're OK? And [00:01:00]
the next thing I remember is her screaming at me, and then we
were in the guardrail. So leadership, good or bad is made up of
moments, and these moments are where decisions and choices get
made. Sometimes they're obviously critical to the team's path,
while other times the purpose of those moments is not so obvious.
Sometimes the choice in the moment is easy, and sometimes it's
hard. Sometimes you can clearly see the potential impact of the
choice, while in other moments the future of that choice is
cloudy, but always. In hindsight, if we look closely enough, we
can see the choice or choices in the moments that were made that
were the cause of the success or failure and the night that we
crashed into the guardrail. I was given at least two of those
moments, and it's only by the grace of God and my wife screaming
at me that my family has more. So as a leader, whether you're a
spouse, your coach or manager, supervisor, [00:02:00] CEO,
Commander, Sargent doesn't matter. You will have leadership
moments where you're going to be at a crossroads and have the
opportunity to choose to act or pass on that moment. And when it
comes to safety, these moments are all around us. You think about
a moment where you saw one of your team maybe not wearing safety
glasses or choosing to take a shortcut that you yourself had
taken just the day before, or maybe even with that employee
together? Or that employee might be rushing to get the job done,
making normal work a crisis. And you didn't take a moment, you
name it. I expect we've all had an experience like this to
reflect on. And then when you do choose to act on that moment,
especially in the workplace for workplace safety, what do you get
in the response when you act on that moment? It's my experience
that that receiver is not always gushing to thank you and really
appreciative of you stopping to have them put his safety glasses
on. Most likely, they're [00:03:00] sullen and possibly can't
understand why you're bringing the nanny state to bear in this
particular opportunity, because it was just for a moment that
they weren't wearing their PPE or that it took too long. And why
are we doing it this way here anyway? Or add your excuse, you can
find any excuse so you don't act or you don't act in a way that
can engage the individual or your team, and the cycle of moments
start all over again. Well, today I have the distinct privilege
of speaking to someone who sees the importance of recognizing
these moments and choosing to engage. Joining me on the podcast
is Patrick Nelson. Patrick is an experienced leader, having
served as a paratrooper in the U.S. Army, leading soldiers
through three combat deployments earning a Bronze Star and a
Purple Heart. Beyond his military career, he has a master's
degree in sports management from Minnesota state and another in
organizational development from Pepperdine University. Patrick
[00:04:00] lives in Minnesota and is the CEO of Loyalty Point
Leadership, working with small businesses and Fortune 500
companies to deploy leadership development programs. There's a
ton to Patrick's story, and we're only going to scratch the
surface today. So with that introduction, Patrick, welcome to the
podcast today.


Patrick Nelson: [00:04:20] Thanks, Peter. It is
great to be here, and I just want to thank you for sharing that
very personal story at the beginning because I think as you'll
find throughout our short time together today that sharing
stories is very important to me to really move the needle on
safety. So I think it's awesome that you did that. Thank you.


Peter Koch: [00:04:40] I appreciate that. And
yeah, I noticed that like we, we just met a couple of days ago
talking over WebEx and trying to figure out, Hey, so how does
this all fit in with the safety podcast? And I have found that
you speak the truth like stories are very important to you. And
you found that it really does make [00:05:00] an impact. And
that's going to be part of what we talk about today because, I
don't know, engaging in safety. I have found in my career it's
been 18 years with MEMIC. Now, as a safety management consultant,
engaging people in safety is really important and I think you've
had a similar experience as well with trying to engage people
regardless of what that is.


Patrick Nelson: [00:05:22] I did, yeah, you
know, when I was in the military, I used to have to give
pre-mission briefings before every combat mission we rolled out
on, much like the civilian world, whether it's a start up meeting
the shift change a tower talk whatever you want to call it. I was
faced with the same challenge that many people are faced keeping
people engaged in those meetings. You're providing some valuable
information, but a lot of times that information is the same
thing those employees are hearing every single day. And I sat in
on a couple of these with different clients throughout the
country, in different industries, and it seemed [00:06:00] like
people were more worried about finding the pen to sign in than
they were listening to what the person had to say. And one of the
things that I learned in my time in the military giving these
briefings is the power of being able to use personal stories to
keep people engaged. I knew that I had to get creative and think
outside the box instead of just going through my little
checklist. And you know, hey guys, make sure you got your helmet
on. You got your eye protection, everybody's got their gloves on.
Telling very personal and brief is a very key word because we
don't have the longest attention spans, but personal and brief
stories related to those topics that people can specifically
relate to is really what's going to get people engaged.


Peter Koch: [00:06:46] Yeah, right on. So like
when you were given those pre mission briefings and possibly
before you started seeing the value of telling those stories,
like how did you know that you were getting the message across?
[00:07:00] Or maybe that you weren't getting the message across?
Like, what was the what were the team's reaction when they were
like, All right, Patrick, I've had enough of this. Let's just get
going on the mission.


Patrick Nelson: [00:07:09] Yeah, that's a good
question. You can tell, by the way, people look at you. I mean,
you can tell when people are fully engaged in a conversation with
you. Or you could also tell when they're kind of just stared at
you blankly and their mind is thinking about 12 different other
things. And that's something that I realize, especially in a
combat situation where even though you're in a very dangerous
place, it's still very easy to get complacent. Guys are thinking
about home. They're thinking about their families, their mind can
wander and the same thing happens whether you're working in
construction or on the manufacturing line, especially what I
found during COVID. People are thinking about their kids that
are, you know, there's a kid have to home school. They're
thinking about their parents that, you know, might be in an age
population that may be at a higher [00:08:00] risk. It's easy to
get distracted from the very important stuff. And so one of the
things is just having that eye contact and making sure that
people are engaged. And another thing that I actually used to do
was I have one of my soldiers leave that briefing. I let him know
the day before, Hey, tomorrow you're going to go ahead and leave
the briefing, and I'd sit down right next to them and help them
prepare. And I would stand right next to them when they were
doing it to throw them a lifeline in case they needed some help
to make sure that everything was covered. Worst case scenario,
they were going to get up there and they were going to stink it
up. However, it was going to be an opportunity for them to step
outside of their comfort zone and a huge learning opportunity for
them and to keep them engaged in the process.


Peter Koch: [00:08:43] Yeah, that's awesome.
That's that leadership moment. Like, here's the moment I have. I
can either do it myself or I can. I can recognize that somebody
else might have a better story to tell or have better impact with
my team since, you know, they've been listening to me for the
last, however many weeks or days. And then what I like to about
[00:09:00] that particular instance that you described was you
didn't just throw them the checklist and say, All right, buddy
tag, you're it. It's OK, here's the day. Here's your
responsibility. This is what we're going to go through. Let's
talk it through. Let's make sure we can figure it out so that
you're giving them the resource to be successful in that point,
which is another great leadership piece, whether it's in safety
or just leadership in general. Awesome. Awesome part there.


Patrick Nelson: [00:09:26] Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, as you know, Peter, it's inherent in anybody who considers
himself a leader to be able to coach and mentor those that follow
them.


Peter Koch: [00:09:37] You know, we're initially
talking about leadership here and you know, your experience in
the military when you talked about it, it's a combat zone. So the
choices that are made within that particular venue for combat,
you can connect the consequences really easily. And even though
you said you get complacent, you don't always see [00:10:00] it.
Sometimes it happens surprisingly. But looking in at from the
outside, there's more implications to not taking advantage of the
moment in those situations that than there are, say, maybe in
construction or maybe in manufacturing or something else where
you doing the same thing day after day after day, but honestly.
Even though you might not have the same number of opportunities
to lose your life as you do in combat, you have a myriad of
opportunities in any industry to be injured to change your life
in an instant. You had a particular experience, I'm sure, out of
many different experiences across your seven years in the
military where you saw the impact of a moment. And I wonder if
you might take some time and relate that story so that we can
hear it and kind of get an idea where you're coming from. And
then we can talk [00:11:00] about that story and how it's
impacted you and how you see things differently for current and
future.


Patrick Nelson: [00:11:09] Yeah, absolutely,
Peter. You know, I have that one traumatic experience that has
changed my life, and it's been that experience from 15, 16 years
ago that has led me to right here being a guest on your podcast
right now. And it was June 8th, 2005. I was operating out of a
small forward operating base near the Pakistani border. So I was
in Afghanistan. This was the type of place we were short on
everything except the enemy. We faced regular indirect fire
attacks participate in several large battles that saw between 50
to one hundred enemy fighters each time. And on this particular
morning, we were getting resupplied with some ammunition by a
chinook helicopter. Resupply procedures were a common part of
what we did, and our platoon was divided into two sections. So
any time a resupply [00:12:00] would come in, one of those
sessions would be designated as the hot gun. Basically, they were
responsible for standing by to respond to any type of attack. The
other section, which responds with unloading the supplies from
the helicopter. So on this particular morning, my section was the
hot gun. We're going to get resupplied with some ammunition. But
the other section had a sergeant leaving to go on R&R and I
was going to go ahead and backfill his position with them. So as
the helicopter approached, I hopped in the Humvee with my good
friend Luke. And just as we were about to drive out to the
landing zone, my soldier Emmanuel Hernandez, hopped in the back.
Now he was supposed to be back with the hot gun, so I turned
around and I was about to yell at him. But I thought for a
second, you know what, I value that kind of work ethic. He wants
to come lift some heavy boxes and help out the team. I know that
our section will be fine without him. I value that in [00:13:00]
my soldiers, so I didn't say anything. And as I was turning
around. I noticed that he didn't have his helmet on, and so I
literally opened my mouth. But I quickly realized I don't have
mine on, either. It's kind of hard for me to say something if I'm
not doing the right thing, so I said nothing. As we got out to
the landing zone, a group of 10 of us stepped to the side of the
aircraft so they could take a machine gun off the back ramp. The
rotors on the helicopter were turning, couldn't hear each other.
My platoon sergeant handed me a piece of paper with some serial
numbers to items we were expecting, basically saying, Hey, it's
your responsibility to make sure we get these specific items. So
I grab that piece of paper from him and I turn my back to that
group so I could ground guide Luke in the Humvee to back them up
a little bit closer to the helicopter. And the next thing I
remember. Everything went dark, and as I was laying on the
ground, disoriented, unable to [00:14:00] hear. I thought maybe
somebody came up behind me and had just hit me on the back of the
head maybe played a joke that went too far.


Patrick Nelson: [00:14:09] But then I looked up
and there were bodies of blood all over the ground in my hearing
came back, the helicopter quickly powered down and I heard that
very distinct whistle of an incoming rocket. And so I got up and
I dove underneath the Humvee for cover as rockets started to
impact all around. And as I was laying there, I realized there's
a rocket that had landed next to it, instead it knocked me to the
ground. So as the barrage finally ended. I crawled out from
underneath the Humvee, started making my way back to the soldiers
that were still on the ground, unsure of what I was going to
find. And as I was doing that, a marine yelled from behind me
that I'd been hit. Now, up until that point, I had not felt any
pain, but I turned my head and look at the back of my uniform and
it was shredded and blood was starting to pour out. And it was at
that moment that the pain all of a sudden hit me. The other
soldiers quickly [00:15:00] triage those of us that were hurt,
loaded us into whatever type of vehicle they could find and
brought us to this small clinic on our base that was ran by an
Afghan doctor who treated locals. Now my wounds were very, very
minor compared to everybody else. I was peppered in the back with
shrapnel, small holes in there, nothing too serious, but it
definitely hurt. And I was quickly bandaged up by Luke, and I saw
Sergeant Michael Kelly, a supply sergeant from the Massachusetts
National Guard, who is recently attached to our unit.


Patrick Nelson: [00:15:33] He was laying on this
elevated stretcher off the ground, and the local Afghan doctor
who worked in that clinic was performing CPR on him. He's
standing on this. I'll never forget this red milk crate because
he was like five feet, two inches tall. And so he's standing on
this red milk crate performing CPR on Michael. And I did a quick
lap around the clinic to see who else was hurt. I came across my
platoon sergeant, one of the just handed me the piece of paper
right before [00:16:00] the explosion. He's laying on a
stretcher, on the ground, on the outside of the clinic because
the inside was already full of others who were hurt. The femoral
artery and his leg was severed along with other severe wounds.
And by the time I came back around, I couldn't have been more
than thirty or forty five seconds and they have lowered Michael
to the ground and we're zipping them up into a body bag. And I
found my way into a small room in the back of the clinic where I
found my soldier, Emmanuel Hernandez, he's laying on a table. His
head is bandaged. He's unconscious. But we were fortunate to have
a special forces battalion surgeon in our area that day who
responded, so I knew he was giving the best care available and I
could see his chest rise and fall. So I knew that he was
breathing and I just I grabbed him by the hand, whispered to him
everything was going to be OK.


Patrick Nelson: [00:16:52] Medevac helicopters
arrived brought us to four surgical teams spread throughout the
country. I was on a helicopter ride with my platoon sergeant,
[00:17:00] who had by then lost consciousness. But thanks to the
quick thinking of the soldiers on the ground, we're putting a
tourniquet on his leg and the medical staff that treated him. He
survived and he kept his leg. The surgical team removed several
pieces of shrapnel from my back. They left a few souvenirs in
there that were little too deep to get out that I still carry
with me. But they stitched me up and bandaged me up, sent me back
to the landing zone for another helicopter ride to Bagram
Airfield for some more advanced care. And as I was waiting there,
my commander approach to see how I was doing. I said, I'm going
to be just fine. How is? How is Emmanuel? And he looked at me. He
said he was going to be OK. I just felt such relief. And he
turned to walk away, and he got about four or five steps. And he
turned around. And with tears coming down his cheeks. He said,
I'm sorry that I lied. Hernandez didn't make it. And [00:18:00]
my knees got weak as I hit the ground, my commander embraced me.
Emanuel died because shrapnel from the explosion hit him in the
head. He died because I was not doing the right thing. Because I
didn't have the courage to speak up and to say something, and
there's been so many days where I thought how simple it would
have been if I would have just said, Hey guys, wait, let's go get
our helmets quick.


Patrick Nelson: [00:18:27] I mean, nothing would
have been delayed. It would have taken a matter of moments just
this morning at breakfast. Emanuel was telling another soldier
how he couldn't wait to get home and started having kids with his
wife. And if only I would have stopped and said something. His
wife, Jessica, would still have her husband. His mother would
still have her son. And Emmanuel would still have his life ahead
of him. But guess what, we've done it like that hundreds and
times before. And nothing has ever happened. It's so [00:19:00]
easy, I don't care whether you're in a combat zone or you're out
there, you know, paving roads or working on some type of line or
swinging a hammer. It's so easy to get complacent and to sort of
fall and get that tunnel vision and get used to doing things a
certain way, especially if it's the wrong way. You know, if you
stay in your industry long enough, you might have some lucky
days, but you may not have a lucky career because sooner or
later, whether it's your fault or not. Something can happen to
you. I know it's such a cliche. So one in a million chance. But
Peter, I'm here to tell you that it absolutely can happen. You
know, I like to ask people this when I'm working with clients,
I'll say, Hey, who here has ever bought a lottery ticket in their
life like a Powerball Mega million? And most people raise their
hand, right? And we bought that ticket knowing that the chances
of us winning [00:20:00] are astronomical.


 


Patrick Nelson: [00:20:03] But we have this
sliver of belief that maybe just maybe it might be us. Well, let
me tell you, if you have that attitude towards winning a lottery
jackpot that it could happen to you. I definitely hope you have
that attitude towards workplace safety because the chances of you
getting hurt at work are a heck of a lot higher than you winning
a lottery jackpot. Again, it's so easy to get comfortable to get
used to doing things one way or another. And there's a phenomenon
called the diffusion of responsibility when you're in groups of
people. You're less likely to speak up to say something or to
lend a hand. And why is that? Because you think somebody else is
going to do it?


Peter Koch: [00:20:55] It's not my job.


Patrick Nelson: [00:20:56] It's not my job,
right? It's not my responsibility. Nobody [00:21:00] else is
speaking up. So I guess everything's OK. And it doesn't matter to
me if it's your second day on the job or if you've been there for
twenty five years, you can get sucked into that diffusion of
responsibility. I got another story that I'll share later here
with you where that happened to me just two short years ago. But
thankfully, I have an awesome wife just like yours, who spoke up
and was able to help change that situation.


Peter Koch: [00:21:30] Right on. Oh my gosh,
that that is a hugely powerful story, and I thank you for sharing
that and realize you're on the podcast to help share things, but
that to share the story in the way that you did and for us to
realize all of the all the decisions that that went into that one
moment, like in that that hindsight 20 20 analysis of the plan
and what happened [00:22:00] all the way back to that moment
where you look back at them and you open your mouth and you were
like, not this time. And then the story goes on from there. So
that's a hugely powerful story, and it resonates, resonates for
me. I know the diffusion of responsibility kind of thinking about
that. I geez, I could go through my career and find hundreds of
times where that's happened, where I almost raised my hand, but I
didn't quite feel like it was my job. And as a leader, right, do
you think about as a leader, it is your job, but that is your
only job. So take away everything else that you have as a leader,
if you're in charge of a family, you're in charge of a platoon,
you're in charge of a team. Whatever it is, you're only job is to
make sure that your team is properly equipped for success. And
[00:23:00] if you don't take that moment to say something. Like
you said, you buy the lottery ticket and some days you win and
some days you lose, but as a leader, you really can't take those
chances.


Patrick Nelson: [00:23:14] Yeah, absolutely. For
everybody listening right now. You're listening to this because
more than likely you work in an industry or, you know, somebody
that works in an industry where the consequences are very real if
something happens. And again, it's not a matter of if a lot of
times, unfortunately, it's a matter of when. Again, when I go
into clients, I love to ask people. It used to be a variety of
people. It might be that second day employee in there or that's
employee who's been there 10, 15, 20 years. But I'll ask them who
here has ever taken a shortcut when it comes to safety or not
wearing the proper PPE? Been complacent been negligent not follow
procedure and every hand in that room [00:24:00] goes up. We've
all been guilty of it at one point in our career or another. But
again, go back to what I said. You might have some lucky days,
but if you stay in that industry long enough, you may not have a
lucky career. We got sucked in to that comfort zone of being and
we were in a combat zone where our lives are on the line. Twenty
four seven. And we got sucked into it. So if it can happen to me
during combat operations in Afghanistan, I know that it
absolutely can happen to you.


Peter Koch: [00:24:35] Yeah, complacency it's
the bane of what we do. I mean, even if your job is different day
to day, hour to hour, there's still things that are going to pull
your mind away from it. There's still things that are going to
force you into position where you're going to recognize a moment
and then need to make a choice. And then when we get complacent,
you start to think about, well, like coming [00:25:00] up to a
yellow light. What do you do? Right. So the yellow light means,
do I speed up and get through it before it turns red? Or do I
slow down and pay attention, or maybe even stop and let the
traffic go through? So if I've had the experience of being lucky
time after time, after time, I might not take that opportunity to
say something or to go back and get my helmet or to put my PPE on
or, you know, I think we could probably swap stories for a few
hours about successes and failures personally that we've seen and
then that we've heard other people tell us about or things that
I've had to go and investigate as loss control consultant of a
fatality that has occurred on the work site where the same thing
if we walk back to. The critical decision that was made that
allowed the scenario to unfold the way it did. It was a
leadership failure. Almost always, it's a leadership failure.


Patrick Nelson: [00:26:00] Yep, [00:26:00] I
absolutely agree with you, you know, the research is clear,
ninety nine point some percent of all incidents are completely
preventable. Yeah, save those lone acts of God. But there are
opportunities there when you're doing, whether it's your root
cause analysis, you're asking why five times whatever process it
is that you're using, you're going to get back to that situation
where that could have easily been prevented. And you'll probably
find about five or six different situations where somebody could
have easily raise their hand or spoke up, and they didn't for
whatever reason it is. And so, yes, as leaders, absolutely again,
our inherent responsibility to take care of those around us.


Peter Koch: [00:26:45] Yeah. And so beyond the
diffusion of responsibility, like why in your experience talking
to all, all your clients and having your experience within the
military and even outside that, why do you think leaders don't
[00:27:00] make that choice? I mean, you have your personal
experience. I've had my personal experiences where I haven't
stepped up and made that choice. Why else do you think leaders
don't step into the breach to say something?


Patrick Nelson: [00:27:15] Well, first of all,
you chose your words very apropos there, because you said choice,
because I like to say safety is not an option, but it's still a
choice. It still comes down to that individual. And I think
there's a plethora of reasons of why and a lot of the ones that I
see is. Pressure. We have to meet our numbers, we don't want to
come in and have to work this weekend, and a lot of times that
pressure is driven internally. Now there can absolutely be
external factors and it's the way a lot of times it's even the
way people choose their words. You're not going to go into a
company that's [00:28:00] going to tell you blatantly, you know,
we disregard safety so we can meet our numbers. You know, a lot
of them are going to expose like, Oh, no, safety is our number
one priority. And if you need to slow down, go ahead and slow
down, we support you. But yet the words that they're choosing are
being received by the people that are out there doing the
dangerous work as, Oh boy, we need to get this done and we need
to get people to realize you don't need to compromise safety for
performance or vice versa. You can be a very high performing team
and be really safe at your job as well. We can do both at the
same time. That is absolutely possible. So there's definitely
that idea of the pressure driven situations where leaders may not
want to step up and say something. Leaders may not want to what
they see as rock the boat, and that was one of my things that
held me back with not speaking up with Emmanuel.


Patrick Nelson: [00:28:59] Look, we're
[00:29:00] we're in a combat zone. I don't want to have to yell
at him. You know, he's just trying to come and help. I don't want
to say anything and have to get into him and. It's like I found
out the consequences of not speaking up, and so one of the things
is not knowing how to have those difficult conversations with
people we don't like as humans. We don't like conflict. The
majority of us, we do not like conflict. We're going to shy away
from it. And again, one of the reasons is because we think, you
know, if we go tell somebody that they're doing something wrong
or give them that negative developmental critical or whatever
nomenclature you put on that feedback is it's going to cause some
adversity or tension there in that relationship, and we don't
want that. However, there are absolutely ways to be able to have
those conversations to take sort of that judgment that comes out
of it, and it's really just focusing on the behavior of that
person and try to make it as objective as possible. [00:30:00]
And for me, it really starts with empathy, and empathy is really
kind of been a buzzword in leadership circles over the last
couple of years. But it comes down to empathy, and a lot of
people think of empathy as this very soft and cuddly type thing.
And you know, I come from I was in a unit full of paratroopers,
one hundred and twenty alpha males in that unit, and I can tell
you, I learned a lot about empathy.


Patrick Nelson: [00:30:26] It's just what it
really is. It's being able to see things from somebody else's
perspective. You know, I'm not for treating everybody the same.
I'm for treating everybody fairly. And its leadership is not a
one size fits all approach to everybody, I had the opportunity to
work with the diverse team of soldiers from all different walks
of life and from all different areas across our country and even
the world. And the one size fits all approach doesn't always
work. You know, I'd have those soldiers where I could yell at
them till I'm [00:31:00] blue in the face and it just would not
get across or I'd have them where I just had to raise my voice
just a little bit. And that was it. They understood. And so it's
being able to really know your people and how to have those
conversations. You got to know what motivates them. And I'm not
talking about, you know, money or bonuses, right? Nobody's coming
to work if they're not getting paid. We know that. But there are
still reasons that people have chosen that job, especially in the
market. Today, you can go out there and you can get a paycheck
down the road. Almost any other place right now. There are
reasons that they are right there in your organization and you
need to find out what those intrinsic motivators are and really
leverage those in your relationship and how you communicate with
that person.


Peter Koch: [00:31:50] Let's take a quick break.
In our experience here at MEMIC, successful companies are safe
companies, and those companies have good leaders from front line
seasonal supervisors [00:32:00] to middle management and beyond.
Growing the leadership team is a critical part of that success.
MEMIC recognizes the value of leadership and safety, and that not
all supervisors and managers have had formal leadership training.
That's why we've created a series of resources and workshops
specifically for supervisors and managers called integrating
safety into business goals from the breakdown of three basic
skills every supervisor needs through how recognition works and
conflict management. Integrating safety into business goals is a
great starting point for developing your leadership team.
Already, a MEMIC policyholder then reach out to your MEMIC Safety
Management consultant for more information about these resources.
And if you're not already a policyholder and you're interested in
how MEMIC can partner with you for workplace safety, contact your
independent insurance agent and ask about MEMIC. Now, let's get
back to today's episode.


Peter Koch: [00:33:00] Yeah, [00:33:00] it's
great, so tie in for me, like how you how you use the power of
stories to connect in and bring the message of safety because. I
think it's easy to talk about success as a company and you can
get recognition because you're successful as a company and we met
our numbers here, but safety is one of those weird things where
it's the measurement of the negative right. It's the measurement
of the thing that doesn't happen. And yeah, you can only save so
much money from an insurance standpoint, and you can show that
you saved this much money because we didn't have this many people
get hurt, but there are people who will look at that and go,
Well, it's because we worked harder because we were luckier
because of this or because of that. So. Engaging people in safety
with the power of a story to help with that empathy, I think is
key. So how does that how does that work together for you? How do
you see using a story to tie [00:34:00] safety or make safety
important for people?


Patrick Nelson: [00:34:03] Yeah, again, it
absolutely comes down to engaging people, and in my experiences,
I found that telling those personal brief, powerful stories is
what really can get people's attention. And you know what? Three
weeks or three months down the road, they may not remember every
single word that you said, but they're going to remember how you
made them feel. And so I really focus on that emotional aspect of
it, things that people can easily relate to any time you start
telling a story and you're using the words my son or daughter, my
mother or father, brother, sister, right? People start to be able
to pay attention. And through some of the work that I've done
with some clients is I helped equip some of those people with the
stories. And at first, I honestly did not know how it would
translate into the civilian world again. [00:35:00] I had all
that great experience in the military, very bureaucratic
organization. My soldiers had to listen to me. They didn't have
much of a choice. But again, I think a leader is somebody who
influences outcomes and inspires others. Is that about being in
control or having power, notoriety, prestige? Anyways, I digress.
Telling personal stories and equipping them with every single
person, I saw the impact that it can have. So these organizations
I work with, they've the numbers are there, right? They've seen
that decrease in their recordable incident rate. Like you were
saying, the business case, we all know the business case for
safety is there. But more than anything, it's that personal and
moral obligation that we all have to take care of each other. And
what's even more interesting, Peter. Is that I help equip these
people with their own what I call a safety stump speech and some
of the most powerful ones that I [00:36:00] heard and ones that
really helped move the needle on safety had nothing to do with an
incident on a job site. I've heard people tell very personal
stories of, you know, accidents at home, accidents or situations
that they even heard about, or that one of their friends or
family were involved. And those are the type of stories when
somebody can get up there and they start getting tears in their
eyes and they tell these people, Look, I care about you. And I'm
here to help you and to keep you safe. It's really developing
that connection and engagement with the person. Again, it may not
be remembering every single word that that person says in that
story, but it's really that connection that's built. And it gets
people to start to take ownership over safety. I mean, again,
that I go into all these clients and that's what they say. We
want our employees to start taking ownership of safety and in
order to get their, [00:37:00] well one, it obviously has to
start at the top and be mirrored up there because as humans, we
have a tendency to mirror the behavior of others around us. So if
people up there are not doing the right thing, I can expect
others to be able to do the same. And the second thing is it's
being able to empower people. To be able to tell their story and
to share it with others, giving them the opportunities, and
again, as you know, as a safety expert, Peter. It's about being
proactive.


Peter Koch: [00:37:31] Yeah, it really is. As
you were talking about that, what was coming to mind for me is
something you said earlier on was the words that you use are
important when you are addressing somebody. From a safety
standpoint, because it helps them engage, and if you promote that
storytelling within your company and again, whether it's
storytelling that happens because of an incident that occurred at
your business or it's a personal story. I think that emotional
connection can almost be like [00:38:00] this guy or gal cares.
So when you're going to build that kind of emotional trust bank
up with that person so that when you come back to them later on
and you're in that moment, you have that, only you have that
millisecond to make a decision. And you might not be able to be
warm and fuzzy in that moment to tell that person that put their
PPE back on or to put the lockout back on that or to get off the
frickin top of the ladder or whatever it is.


Patrick Nelson: [00:38:31] Right


Peter Koch: [00:38:33] They are going to know
that you have their back and they're going to look at you and go,
OK, he's not just being a jerk. He really cares and I'm going to
do that and that's going to pay it forward later on. I think
there's a key part in that. That's an awesome thought using
stories that way. Patrick, thanks for connecting that for me.


Patrick Nelson: [00:38:54] Yeah. Well, you're
welcome. I love that you said the emotional trust bank. I never
heard that before, [00:39:00] but I am going to be taking that
now, and I'm going to help people open their own emotional trust
bank in those relationships because I think that's important.
What's interesting is you're reminded me of the very first
platoon leader I had on my first deployment to Afghanistan. He
was a guy by the name of John Post. And a young lieutenant, a few
years removed from West Point, what this guy lacked in experience
he more than made up for in his leadership behavior. So this was
the type of guy and I've seen him do it. He could sit you down
and tell you the 12 different ways you sucked at life, but you
leave the conversation with a smile on your face. Ready to charge
up that proverbial hill because you knew he cared about you. You
knew he had your best interests in mind, and he was going to give
you every single resource that you needed to be successful.


Peter Koch: [00:39:48] Yeah, and that's hard
work as a leader. I mean, it really is hard. It's harder than
going and doing the job that your, that your guys are doing or
your gals are doing like that technical [00:40:00] skill of doing
the job is one thing and you as a leader, you probably came from
that world. You came, you got your job as a leader, as a foreman
or a supervisor or a manager because you were good at that job or
you were good at the tasks that you are now leading people in.
But I think the harder part is connecting with those people and
making sure that you are able to motivate them to do the right
thing when you're not there, right? So that, you know, as a
leader, when you go away and you have to manage the other project
that these people understand what the expectations are and
they're doing it for the right reasons. Because if they're only
doing it, going back to our initial part of this conversation,
when you're doing the pre shift meeting or pre-deployment
meeting. And you're just checking the boxes if they're only doing
it because they're checking the boxes that guaranteed at
[00:41:00] some point in time, they're going to take that
shortcut. And if you're not there to take advantage of the
moment, somebody else on your team needs to be there to take
advantage of the moment and if you haven't built that, trust up.
It's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen.


Patrick Nelson: [00:41:14] Absolutely.


Peter Koch: [00:41:15] Right on. You know,
thinking about influence there before I became the risk manager
at the ski area that I worked at. You know, I was the patrol
director and I was like, Oh, I figured all this safety stuff out
and I got responsibility for being the risk manager. And the
first phone call that I took as the risk manager was from a
father. And it was a father of a young, like a 16 year old girl
who was getting her first job as a lift operator or a lift
attendant at the ski area. And he called me up and he had worked
in the local mill. We have a paper mill within our area. And he
was a supervisor and a manager up there. And so he gets working
around equipment. I mean, he knows what [00:42:00] can happen if
you make a mistake, if you get in the way of equipment is not
going to stop, you know, equipment plus people, you add them
together the equipment's almost always going to win and in the
phone call, he said to me, it's like I expect you to make sure
that my daughter has all the tools that she needs in order to be
safe on the job. And I remember that meeting with this guy, I
don't remember his name because it was a fairly brief, it might
have been a five or six minute phone call. But I remember that
conversation because it really made me think about the
responsibility that I had, even just as a safety person who has.
And if there's a safety person and I know there are listening to
this podcast today, you are that individual that has all the
responsibility for safety, but no authority. So I'm thinking,
Wow, now I'm this guy is looking at me and I'm [00:43:00]
responsible for his daughter's safety, and I need to know whether
or not the lift op. supervisor has all the tools to help keep
this guy safe. So then I have to develop a relationship with the
lift ops. manager, a supervisor, so that I can influence him to
make changes if he needs to. Because I didn't have any authority
over his position, all I could do is offer him resources. And if
I hadn't built up trust with him so that he knows that I've got
his back, then it's just going to be a head nod. And as soon as I
go away, he's back to his old jobs and tasks. And the successful
part of that story was that the girl was successful. She had a
great season. She enjoyed it really well. Got a thank you note
from the dad at the at the end of the season and we went on from
there. That was 25 or so years ago, but those little, those
little connections of who is going to influence you. And it's
typically because you will remember the [00:44:00] emotional
connection of that particular story. That's pretty awesome.


Patrick Nelson: [00:44:06] Yeah, absolutely, I
mean, again, that's just reinforces exactly what we're talking
about here. It happens in moments and we remember again, like you
said, that emotional connection that we build with another
person, that's what we're going to carry forward.


Peter Koch: [00:44:19] Yeah, awesome. So I have
another thought here to maybe explore with you a little bit. And
it's about it's about role perception, right? And how that
affects an individual's decision to say something or not say
something. And it kind of goes back to that that leaders piece,
right? So if I'm a leader and you might be the designated leader
or you might be working in a team where you are all peers. So the
leader is not physically present in your work group at that time
and you're all peers. The diffusion of responsibility, right? So
it's not my job type [00:45:00] of piece. How does role
perception like somebody's role perception fit into their
choosing to take advantage of the moment and say something or
hide in the background and not take advantage of that? I'm not
sure if I've asked that question well enough, but can you? You
think about that and maybe throw that around in the safety mix
for a bit?


Patrick Nelson: [00:45:22] Yeah. Well, you know,
I can relate it to my experiences that I've had, especially here
in the civilian world with the companies that I've had the
pleasure of working with in a lot of it comes down honestly to
culture. And again, if people are taking ownership, are we
empowering these employees to be able to speak up, to be able to
make decisions in the absence of maybe that person who's
technically in charge? And there's several different ways. Are we
empowering people to stop the job? I mean, it never fails when I
go into an organization and [00:46:00] I start asking, Hey, who
here can stop the job? And they said, Well, anybody can. And then
I said, Well, how do they know? We tell them every single day.
And then I ask them if they one hundred percent believe that
every single person out there would stop the job if they saw an
incident or didn't know something. And of course, the answer is
no right. You can tell them to your blue in the face, but there's
misconceptions out there where people don't feel empowered. One
of them is when it comes to stop the job. There are some people,
unfortunately, that think when you say stop the job or whatever
again nomenclature you put on, it means you're hitting this big
red button and you're shutting everything down. Stopping the job
could mean those are the very rare circumstances, right? Right.
Stopping the job. You mean you're just taking a step back. You're
asking a question to get some clarity or something may have
changed. And then you diving back into your work. Another thing
that hampers that empowerment of people is they think they're
going to get in trouble if they stop the job. [00:47:00] And a
lot of that kind of comes back to that having that pressure on us
to perform to meet some type of number. People think they're
going to get in trouble. Now again, that's usually not happening.
But as humans, we have this innate fear that if we do something
wrong or if we slow things down, or if it's not the right reason,
we're going to get in trouble for it. And so one thing that I
tried to make clear to people is you need to go out there and you
need to stop the job and you stop the job one. Maybe it's for no
reason, but to show them you're not hitting this big red button.
And that's OK to do so because I would rather have somebody out
in the job nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand
because they didn't know something in order to catch up. One
reason that prevented an immediate incident from happening.
Because those nine hundred and ninety nine other times are
learning opportunities, chances for us as leaders to help grow
and develop those around us. So it's really [00:48:00] about
being able to empower people to make those decisions to feel
comfortable, to be able to speak up. And again, a lot of it
points back to just people taking individual ownership over their
safety at work. Nobody is getting paid enough to not go home at
the end of their shift. Nobody wants to be that person knocking
on the door, picking up that phone, letting that little girl or
boy know their mommy or daddy is not coming home. Nobody ever
wants to be in that position. But yet we don't talk about it. And
so I think whether you're a large organization or a small
organization is having those conversations. And again, just I
think a lot of it goes back to being proactive when it comes to
safety.


Peter Koch: [00:48:48] That's interesting. I
want to clarify something here. I think I heard you say that. As
an example to kind of lead by that example, to stop the job, to
get people to understand is as a leader, [00:49:00] go and stop a
job. Right.


Patrick Nelson: [00:49:04] Ya. Absolutely.


Peter Koch: [00:49:05] How many leaders do that
like? I think so. If you're listening and you're a leader, how
many times have you gone onto a job and stop the job to ask a
question? And that's all you're asking. That's all you're doing.
You're just asking a question for clarification. And it might be
you're stopping the job for a moment, and it might be your
stopping the job for 15 minutes because of the complexity of the
question that you're asking. But have you actually done that? And
whether it be because you see a problem or because you're just
going to show that it is possible to stop the job?


Patrick Nelson: [00:49:39] Yeah, absolutely. And
another point with that is whether you are a HSC safety
professional or that's an additional duty or you're just a leader
coming around and checking on your people. People should not
pucker up when you come around thinking you're coming to catch
them doing something wrong. If people are doing that, [00:50:00]
then your visibility on the floor on the job site could use some
work. You know,


Peter Koch: [00:50:08] Agreed.


Patrick Nelson: [00:50:10] People should get
excited when you come around, they should, you know, like, all
right, he's here, you know, it shouldn't be some big surprise,
like you're once a year sort of visit again. I know you've got
other tasks and responsibilities that might tie you to the desk
for a little bit. And I always have people say, Well, I wish I
was able to spend more time in the field with my guys. Well,
apparently you're not making it a priority.


Peter Koch: [00:50:31] Surprise, right?


Patrick Nelson: [00:50:33] Some of those other
tasks are tasks that are tying down to that desk and delegate
them to somebody else.


Peter Koch: [00:50:39] Yeah, that's you know,
that was when I went from and again, so interesting job career
path for me to get where I am. But I was a ski bum to start with,
got a job as a ski school instructor, was a patroller for a while
and then I moved from a patroller to the patrol director's job.
And when I got the patrol director's job, I had [00:51:00] gone
from skiing. I don't know, maybe one hundred and twenty to one
hundred and thirty days a year, which is I'm pretty excited about
that. Like, I like doing that to pushing a lot of paper right and
dealing with all that stuff. And I remember having that same
thought. I wish I could get out more. And so the thing that got
me to do that was when I got in in the morning. The first thing
that I did before I did anything else was I put my ski boots on,
and if I hadn't, if I didn't put my ski boots on, I was destined
to ride desk jockey for the rest of the day and deal with stuff
that's happened in the office. But if I had my boots on, I had an
excuse to go out and almost ninety five percent of the time if I
had my boots on, I was going to be out for a few hours to be able
to go out with my guys and gals and see what was going on out
there and build that relationship. But I had to choose to do it.
It didn't just happen magically, and you can't look at your boss
and go, I don't have enough time [00:52:00] to be out there in
the field because I have so much stuff to do. Your boss isn't
going to go well. We'll take away some of that responsibility,
pay you the same amount so that you can go deal with your people,
you have to be able to figure that out. You might be able to go
to your boss and talk about strategy. But don't expect the
responsibilities to get lessened so that you can go out and do
that, part of a leader is figuring out how you connect with your
people.


Patrick Nelson: [00:52:26] Yeah, that's
absolutely what it is. And I like to ask people, I say, Look, are
you a manager or a leader? Now you can be both. But those are
very distinct positions. You manage things, data processes,
equipment schedules, but you lead people. And it's kind of hard
to lead people if you're not out there with them.


Peter Koch: [00:52:47] Yep. Great point, great
point. And I think we lose that in the in the cluster of
everything that's going on, I think we do lose that and to be a
good leader, there's a balance because in order to be a good
leader, you [00:53:00] need to be able to spend some of that
focus time to understand the impact of the product of the work
that your people are doing. So you have those conceptual skills
to be able to see where things are going. But then you also have
to have some of those human and technical skills to be in the
field, to ask good questions, to lend a hand. Maybe if you need
to lend a hand in the field, that's awesome.


Patrick Nelson: [00:53:22] Right. Absolutely.
And you know, you can ask anybody what good leadership looks like
and we all know it. We all know what good leadership looks like.
I'll sit there and I'll ask people, I'll give them a piece of
paper and say, Build me a perfect leader right there right now,
whether they're accountable and empathetic and good
communicators, good listeners, and that laundry list of things
that we know go into making somebody good leader now look. I've
been a leader in the military, I've lead people in combat. I
teach leadership now and I don't encompass all of those things.
We know a good leadership looks like. But it takes work to be
able to do that [00:54:00] and exactly like you're saying. I
mean, there's twenty five different other things that are pulling
us in different directions. You got emails and reports and
conference calls and meetings and. Again, it's being able to as a
leader to find that balance. And again, a lot of it might come
down to being able to delegate. And one thing I like to say is
like, Look, you can delegate authority, but you can't delegate
responsibility as a leader because when it comes down to it, it
is still your responsibility.


Peter Koch: [00:54:30] Yeah, your responsibility
to make that choice, to see the moment and act in that moment,
act in that moment. That's great. Awesome. Well, gosh, it's
almost been an hour. Holy cow. This has gone really fast,
actually. So I guess, you know, we started this thing talking
about stories and how the power of stories can really connect
with your with your team and help build [00:55:00] that emotional
trust up and then be able to help you connect with them to make
safety important. You had mentioned you had another story that
you might want to share, and I wonder if you want to lay that on
us here?


Patrick Nelson: [00:55:13] Yeah, absolutely. You
know, I love sharing this story because again, it just shows the
impact that we can have on those around us. So this was February
of 2019. My wife and I are coming home from church on a Sunday
morning. We're making it right at a stoplight and it goes into
two lanes. And I can see ahead that something is blocking
traffic. People are starting to merge over. And as we creep
closer, there's about five or six guys from the instant oil
change business that's right there on the side of the street, and
they're pounding on the windows of this car that's blocking
traffic. And as I get closer, I see there's an older gentleman
slumped over in the driver's seat. Again, they're pounding on the
windows, trying to get this guy's attention traffic's blocking
[00:56:00] like these guys got this under control, so I shoot
right on by. But I did not get very far because my wife turns to
me and she said, if that was you or my dad, I want you to stop
because you know what you're doing. And she was right. I came
back around the block. I parked, I ran out there by then. They
had busted the back window. They had gotten the guy out onto the
road. One guy was doing chest compressions. Five others were
standing around their thumbs up there you know what? So I did
what we're trained to do, I went up to his head, I put my jacket
under a head tilt and lift, started clearing his airway with all
the chest compressions, food and other not nice stuff were coming
and blocking that airway. So I'm fish hook in some nasty stuff
out of this guy's throat to clear that airway. Me and this guy
are tag-team and CPR. I still hadn't heard the siren, so I
started to question, OK, did anybody even call 9-1-1? I could
barely detect [00:57:00] a pulse on this guy. He looked like he
was dead. But Peter, out of nowhere, like Clark Kent coming out
of the phone booth, this guy shows up with an AED, a guy driving
in a car. He's not an off duty EMT, he's not part of a volunteer
fire department. He's a guy in a car driving by. And he stops and
he gets the AED, and I'm sure most people listening have been
through the training. If you haven't, it talks you through it. It
is dummy proof. We get it hooked up, give them a big old shock.
We continue CPR. Finally, the ambulance arrives. We let them take
over. I go back to my car and go home. And of course, now all I'm
thinking about is that guy. Like, What's his status? Later that
afternoon, I call the non-emergency number and the Public Safety
Office because I have to ask knowing that they're probably not
going to tell me anything, but I have to ask. And they said when
we dropped him off at the hospital. Things [00:58:00] weren't
looking too good. He had gone over 10 minutes without oxygen to
his brain. Later that evening on a neighborhood Facebook page,
people are talking about this incident and somebody shares in the
comments, they said, Yeah, that was Carl from the Home Depot. So
Monday morning, I wake up and I'm in Home Depot and I'm asking
around about Carl if anybody knows anything and they said yeah,
it's not looking too good. And Tuesday morning, I go back into
the Home Depot. Same thing Wednesday, same thing. Thursday, I go
in and they said Carl's sitting up in his hospital bed telling
jokes. He had a major clog the Windowmaker artery that put a
couple of stents, then he was going to be OK. Now, fast forward
four months later, and I'm in Home Depot for like the fourth or
fifth time that day because I'm not a DIY guy. I can barely
change the light bulb in my house, according to my wife. We
needed something hung up on the wall. We call her dad. But
anyways, again, I [00:59:00] digress and I run into Carl. And I
said, Carl, the last time I saw you, you were laying in the
middle of the road and fish hooking pieces of your lunch out of
your throat. And now I like to share that story, Peter, because.
First of all, I could not save Carl's life, I played a very, very
minor role, but a role that would not have happened basically if
my wife didn't have the courage to speak up. To kind of stop the
job and say, Hey. We need to do something. The guy with the AED
is the one who saved Carl's life. He had the courage to stop. He
could have easily been sucked into the diffusion of
responsibility been like, Oh, that crowd over there. They got
that under control. The ambulance is probably going to be here in
like forty five seconds. And he could have just shot right on by
that guy, had the courage to stop and to do something. Our words
and our actions can have such a tremendous impact [01:00:00] on
those around us or our lack thereof. Now, if you speak up and say
something. Point out a safety incident you may not never know.
What you truly prevented from happening, but if you don't speak
up. Sooner or later, you're going to find out, just like I did,
by not speaking up and telling Emanuel to put on his helmet by
me, not wearing my helmet. Sooner or later, you're going to find
out what your inaction can cause and so, you know, sharing that
it's almost sort of the circle of life almost right, it's my
decision to not speak up because again, it was a decision that I
made to not say something. And Emanuel losing his life, but then
that man in that car who stopped at the AED who made the decision
to stop and to put into [01:01:00] action that AED and save
Carl's life. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that's really going
to move the needle on safety. It's not going to be. Here's the
hottest new piece of PPE that's going to save your life. Here's
the newest OSHA regulation that's going to move the needle. It's
going to be getting people to start taking safety, personal,


Peter Koch: [01:01:18] Personal and relational,
personal and relational. You've got to connect it back with them.
Thank you very much for sharing that, and it is cool how there is
that circle in there where you know the lack of choice versus
the. Even though it was kind of a forced choice because, you
know, sometimes you have that like you, you will see the moment.
And you will start to pass by the moment choosing not to act, but
then there'll be somebody or something else that'll smack you
upside the head and go, Hey, dummy. That's your moment. That's
your moment. And we all have those moments. And I think out of
all of this, I'm hoping that people will [01:02:00] recognize the
different moments that they have as they go through their life
and as they go through their work that they can substantially
influence the outcome of someone else's life if they take
advantage of that moment. Awesome, thank you so much, Patrick,
for sharing, for sharing your expertise and sharing your stories
with us very, very engaging. I really have enjoyed listening and
talking with you. So before we go, where can our listeners find
out more about loyalty point leadership and more about you? As
you know, as a speaker, as a leader, as a connector for
leadership and for safety.


Patrick Nelson: [01:02:47] Yeah, absolutely. You
know, www.loyaltypointleadership.com find me on LinkedIn, Patrick
Nelson loyalty point leadership. I'd love [01:03:00] to engage
with anybody that wants to talk safety. I'd love to be a resource
for you going forward and I'd love to learn from you. It's
important leadership, a journey. It's not a destination. It's not
like you go to some sort of leadership class and you get blessed
off and now your leader go forth. You're good to go. We learn
something from everybody, and I learned something from being on
the podcast here today with you, Peter, that emotional trust
bank. I'm going to carry that with me. That's going to be
something. You can find me 10 years down the road and I'm going
to be talking about that. So I appreciate that. And yes, would
love for people to stay in touch.


Peter Koch: [01:03:37] Thank you, Patrick. Thank
you very much. Thanks for joining us today and to all of our
listeners out there today on the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast,
we've been speaking about leadership and engaging people in
safety with Patrick Nelson, CEO of Loyalty Point Leadership, and
about engaging your team. And he's been gracious enough to spend
an hour with us today and talk about that. So again, thank you
for [01:04:00] that, Patrick.


Patrick Nelson: [01:04:01] You're welcome. Have
a great day.


Peter Koch: [01:04:03] Thanks. And if you all
have any questions about leadership, safety or like to hear more
about a particular topic on our podcast, email me at
podcast@MEMIC.com. Also, check out our show notes for today's
podcast at MEMIC.com/podcast, where you can find out more about
Patrick or other leadership podcasts that we've had, and then our
entire podcast archive. And while you're there, sign up for our
safety net blog so you never miss any of our articles or safety
news updates, and if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate
it. If you took a minute to review us on Stitcher, iTunes or
whatever podcast service that you found us on. And if you've
already done that, thanks because it really, truly helps us
spread the word about safety. So please consider sharing the show
with a business associate friend or family member who you think
will get something out of it. And as always, thank you for the
continued support and until next time, this is Peter Koch
reminding you that listening to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast
is good, but using what you [01:05:00] learned here is even
better.