How’s your MEWPs? The skinny on the changes to the Mobile Elevated Work Platform standards with Joe Gagne

Called by many different names: Man lifts, boom lifts, cherry
picker, scissor lift, or bucket truck, mobile elevated work
platforms are everywhere.  They are replacing the
traditional ways people work have worked at height. 


On this episode of the Safety Experts Podcast, I speak with Joe
Gagne, Division Safety Trainer at United Rentals to discuss the
changes to the Mobile Elevated Work Platform standards.


Resources:


https://www.forconstructionpros.com/rental/lifting-equipment/article/21104458/accident-data-directs-best-practices-for-mobile-elevating-work-platforms


https://www.ishn.com/articles/111059-new-ansi-standard-covers-mewp-design-training-safe-use#:~:text=The%20new%20ANSI%20A92%20standard%20was%20developed%20to%20improve%20safety,officially%20effective%20in%20December%202019.


https://constructionexec.com/article/understanding-new-ansi-a92-standard-changes


 


Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and
welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host. Peter
Koch, called by many different names, could be a man lift, boom
lift, cherry picker, scissor lift or bucket truck. Mobile
elevated work platforms are everywhere. They are replacing the
traditional ways people have worked at height places where in the
past you may have seen a ladder or a lift or two of scaffolding
or even a man in the bucket of a loader, unfortunately. You now
see a MEWP or a mobile elevated work platform. As a matter of
fact, just yesterday, as I was leaving a safety conference, there
was a scissor lift in the median, with two men standing in it and
fixing a messaging sign. They had all of their tools with them,
and they were able to easily move the length and the height of
the sign. Contrast that with the workplace accident I
investigated not too long ago, where a maintenance worker was
replacing a lighted sign at the front of the business, where he
worked [00:01:00] and fell from the stepladder that he was using.
Another example I have a policyholder that's planning to use an
electric scissor lift to repair and maintain their indoor
climbing wall and some other elevated features in their adventure
center. The MEWP that they're looking at had to not only extend
to the twenty five foot height necessary to reach the upper holds
on the wall, but the data from the Market Insights website shows
that the high growth potential for area work platforms is due to
rising worker safety concerns across the globe. And no wonder
there are much more stable platform for someone to work on than,
say, a ladder. And these really aren't the old bucket truck or
baskets on a forklift or a loader that we have seen in the past
in the construction industry over the last 30 years. The
introduction of advanced technologies such as tilt and active
load sensors that warn the operator or halt the machine operation
when safety guidelines are approached or exceeded, as well as an
incredible number of equipment. Configurations and options make
these an indispensable [00:02:00] tool for accessing any work
area that could be at height. The article for Market Insights
goes on to state that one factor that continues to stem the use
of MEWPs is the lack of skilled operators and the incidents with
these machines that are caused by misuse or lack of proper
training. To help us explore more about mobile elevated work
platforms. Is Joe Gagne, division safety trainer for United
Rentals? Joe, welcome to the podcast.


Joe Gagne: [00:02:26] Thank you for having me,
Peter. It's a pleasure to be here.


Peter Koch: [00:02:28] It's great. And we were
talking about this before your voice. I'm jealous right now
because it's it sounds great on the microphone. It's going to
sound awesome on the podcast.


Joe Gagne: [00:02:37] Maybe I'm in the wrong
line of business.


Peter Koch: [00:02:39] You might. You might be.
You give Joe Rogan a run for his money, I guess, right? So you
work for United Rentals as a division safety trainer. So tell me
about your tell me, tell me a little bit about United Rentals and
then tell me about what you do for United Rentals and the scope
of the work and how far you travel to do that work.


Joe Gagne: [00:02:58] Thanks. Well, [00:03:00]
United Rentals is the largest equipment sales service company in
the world. We have over 1400 branch locations throughout North
America, and we're starting to expand into Europe and Australia
right now. And as a division safety trainer, I work with our
customers and our employees to ensure that they can operate our
equipment safely. A large component of what I do is training and
certifying operators, so we bring our folks in and we ensure that
they know what the rules and regulations are with the parts and
components of the equipment are and what are the best operating
practices. So at the end of the day, what's most important is
they go home.


Peter Koch: [00:03:33] Yeah, absolutely. And
we're on the same page. We talked to that as a safety consultant,
and I talked to our clients about that all the time. Like the
most important thing is your employees go home in more tired than
they were when they get in today, if they are going to give you
an honest day's work, but they have to go home safely to their
family, their loved ones and do other things, not just work. It's
the really important part.


Joe Gagne: [00:03:54] Absolutely. And that's
really where we have to make safety personal. And if we can
establish personal [00:04:00] aspect of what they're doing and
that's always in the forefront of their mind why they're working,
it will keep them safer throughout their workday.


Peter Koch: [00:04:06] Yeah, beautiful. And we
were talking just before the podcast, some interesting
psychological effects that are out there. So we're talking about
the Dunning Kruger effect and that interesting notion that people
don't know what they don't know until someone comes in and helps
them know. And that's your job.


Joe Gagne: [00:04:22] Exactly. Unfortunately,
there's a lot of misinformation out there in the industry. Folks
are told information from somebody that might have been working
for their organization for a long time, and they were told from
somebody prior to that may not have been fully aware of what the
standards, regulations, rules and laws were. So that's where I
step in as a subject matter expert for my organization.


Peter Koch: [00:04:42] Right on. So let's go
down that road because I think it would be interesting to talk
about this and let's talk about the myths that you encounter when
you get on the job site and you bring a piece of equipment in and
or you go to do training with somebody and they are trying to
explain to you what they [00:05:00] think the right thing is and.
What are some of those myths, so what's the maybe the most
popular myth or misunderstanding or misconception that you get
when you go to a job site?


Joe Gagne: [00:05:09] So the number one myth is
I don't need to be certified or trained on this piece of
equipment. And the reality is you've always had to be. It's just
important to again know what the requirements of training are
because different organizations have different standards for
training. So we want to make sure that your organization's
training is up to the standard that's been published by ANSI, and
that's where we ensure that the training that we provide actually
exceeds that.


Peter Koch: [00:05:33] Yeah, that's awesome. And
that's actually my top myth, too. When I go and talk to a client
or a policyholder about the, well, fall protection, and
inevitably it gets to aerial lifts and we talk about their
training. The most frequent training that I find is that, oh
yeah, I've got trained. So who did your training? Well, the guy
that dropped the piece of equipment off did the training. Well,
who did he train? Well, he trained the guy that signed the piece
of paper that took the lift in [00:06:00] tow. Well, that's not
training like you as the operator have to have training. And it's
not just here's the machine. Those are the controls go forth and
prosper. It's not that it's more complex than that because
they're a very complex machine.


Joe Gagne: [00:06:14] Absolutely. And with the
new ANSI A ninety two point two for that specifically addresses
what constitutes training. It really more clearly defines what
training and certification is, and it requires two components.
The first is a theory portion of instruction where we go over
everything from rules and regulations to parts components to best
operating practices fall protection. Once we complete that
portion of the instruction, we move on to the practical portion
of instruction where each operator is required to get on the
machine and demonstrate their ability to operate it competently
and safely. When you compile both of those aspects up, then you
have a certified operator at the end, provided they can prove
that they can complete those skills in the course correctly.


Peter Koch: [00:06:56] Yeah, because the
beginning part is a more general training, [00:07:00] right? So
we'll have specifics to the piece of equipment that you are
providing them, but it covers aerial lifts in general.


Joe Gagne: [00:07:07] Absolutely. We want to
establish a foundation of knowledge that pertains to all aerial
lifts, and a lot of that involves, again, the rules and
regulations, the stability characteristics of the machine. And
just make sure we're clear that there are two different types.
There is actual certification training, which the operators
require, and then there is specific training for the machine that
you're operating and that's called familiarization training. So
not only do you need to be certified to operate the machines
classification, generally, you need to be familiar with the
specific machine that is being operated.


Peter Koch: [00:07:38] Good. And I think we're
going to get into that a little bit more when we talk about
familiarization and what goes into that particular part. But
let's get back to the certification piece and you had, you talked
about one of those pieces of stability characteristics. What are
some other things that might go into that certification, part of
the training for an operator?


Joe Gagne: [00:07:58] Well, we always want to
make sure that the [00:08:00] operator selects the right machine
to begin with for their assigned task. Not all the machines are
the same. They have different capabilities and characteristics,
so it's important to understand the scope of your work first. So
you select the most appropriate machine for that task. We often
find folks end up on machines that are not best suited for the
task they're assigned, and that's really where the domino effect
starts.


Peter Koch: [00:08:22] Yeah, that's a really
good point. It comes up with another myth. I think that we could
talk about. When you choose a machine that's not quite suited for
the job, you find people either modifying or using the machine in
ways that it really wasn't intended. And that's one of those
myths. I think that people think that they can make changes to
the machine so that it better fits the job. And that's not quite
true, is it?


Joe Gagne: [00:08:45] You are correct. A lot of
folks will try to modify the machine so it suits their need, but
you are not permitted to modify the machine in any way, shape or
form that isn't approved, designed or engineered by the
manufacturer of the machine.


Peter Koch: [00:08:57] And good luck with that.


Joe Gagne: [00:08:58] Exactly. So that's
[00:09:00] where really we want to part with our customers and
make sure that they are selecting the most appropriate machine
for their task, and we can make recommendations on certain
accessories that may aid them and completing their job in a safer
manner.


Peter Koch: [00:09:10] Yeah, that's perfect. And
we were talking earlier too about there is a myriad of
accessories that are available. So it's not just the stock
machine that you see in the catalog and you have to know like how
big it is, how tall it reaches, how stable it's going to be. Will
it be able to articulate in the way that you need it? But there's
a number of other things that you can get with the rental that
will allow you to modify it to be more particular to the task
that you need to do. So what are some of the most common
accessories that people need?


Joe Gagne: [00:09:40] Probably the most popular
accessory that we outfit our machines for customers is what we
call a glazing kit, and that is simply a shelf unit that is
bolted on to the front of the work platform, and it allows the
operator to place any type of plated material, whether it be
insulated glass, sheetrock or plywood on there, secure it in
place and lift it up to a height where it can be mounted or
[00:10:00] installed. And again, it's important you're using the
manufacturer provided accessory because all of those accessories
have capacity limits and you want to obviously make sure you
adhere to those limits to make sure you don't tip the machine
over.


Peter Koch: [00:10:12] Right. So taking a couple
of bolts in a drill and adding some framing onto the machine is
not the way you want to go.


Joe Gagne: [00:10:21] Absolutely not. Some of
the things I've seen people construct over the years on these
machines would frighten some folks. Oftentimes, we find more
modifications occur in the wintertime when the operatives are
trying to protect themselves from mother nature and the elements.
But really, when you start modifying the machine, you're adding
additional weight to it. You may be compromising the guardrail
system by drilling holes into it, and you may be creating a kite
or parachute or sail in the air to catch the wind and potentially
tip the machine over.


Peter Koch: [00:10:48] Sure. And you bring up a
really great point where any modification done to the machine is
not done out of bad intention. It's done out of necessity.
There's the individual doing the job is looking at the job and
thinking, [00:11:00] Hey, I would be safer. I would be more
comfortable if I could have this or do that. And so they're going
to try to make it the way they want it. But what I'm hearing from
you is a better way to look at that is not once the machines on
the ground at the job site to make those changes, but is to do it
early on when you're having the conversation with the sales guy
from the rental company to figure out what exactly do you need?
And there's a particular term for that, I think within the
standard correct.


Joe Gagne: [00:11:30] There it is. It's called
safe use planning.


Peter Koch: [00:11:31] Right, I couldn't
remember that. So I'm glad you did.


Joe Gagne: [00:11:33] And one of the new
regulations that was just published or standards from ANSI
specifically addresses safe use planning and that falls under
ANSI. A ninety two point two two. And really, what you want to do
is get a complete scope of what the task is and identify hazards
and come up with a risk assessment for those hazards and make
sure you select the right machine and do some forethought into
what tasks are going to be performed, how they're going to be
performed and [00:12:00] what accessories we may be able to put
on the machine for you when you do rent one so that you can work
safer and within the manufacturer's guidelines.


Peter Koch: [00:12:07] Yeah. And I think that's
another myth that you've run into is that when people get a
particular piece of equipment, they figure that they can use it
anywhere on the job site. And I think that it's a
misunderstanding because the operator might not have been the
person that received the training about the capacity of the
machine and how it's supposed to be used. So you find scissor
lifts that are designed to be used on flat, hard terrain, outside
on rough terrain, and then we wonder why it feels unstable or
falls over.


Joe Gagne: [00:12:39] Right and one of the nice
things is they've actually are now requiring what we call
supervisor training, where it eliminates the practice component
of the training curriculum. But anybody that supervises or
selects or picks out a machine for use on a project needs to be
trained, so they need to know what type of equipment is
available. They have to do the risk assessment to ensure the work
environment [00:13:00] is going to be safe for their folks. So
it's really important that those people that are selecting
calling in the rentals are aware of all the various different
types of machines that are available, so they select the most
appropriate one.


Peter Koch: [00:13:11] So does the standard.
Does the standard require supervisor training now?


Joe Gagne: [00:13:17] It does.


Peter Koch: [00:13:18] So has that been a change
from the previous standard and the update for the new standard?


Joe Gagne: [00:13:24] It has been. So that's
something we've trying to communicate to our customers that
anybody involved with the process of selection, use of the MEWP
needs to be trained to the regulation. So oftentimes we find the
folks that are responsible for calling in and picking out a
machine for rental or reserving one for rental may not know
anything, if at all, about the machine and what their
capabilities and characteristics are. So it's important to convey
that information to them, and they have a full understanding of
the scope of work that is to be performed so they can select the
most appropriate machine for that task.


Peter Koch: [00:13:59] Does [00:14:00] the
standard provide tools? Because I think in a lot of places, the
person that may be doing the ordering of the machine is not the
guy that really has the best idea of what the worksite is going
to look like. He might be the parts guy he might be just he might
be there to order and reconciliation for the for the company. So
are there tools whereby the supervisor can put all the required
information together in a form and then get that to the guy who's
doing the ordering so he can order the right machine?


Joe Gagne: [00:14:33] Absolutely. And that's
really where our outside sales representatives for our
organization step in and they can provide that type of subject
matter expertise and make suggestions based on the findings after
the risk assessment that has been conducted for the job site.


Peter Koch: [00:14:46] Cool and go back to. So
does the, does the standard have a sample risk assessment in
there or is it something that the company would need to come up
with on their own?


Joe Gagne: [00:14:56] It does provide a guidance
and outline for what things should be looked for and what
[00:15:00] type of hazards should be added? And mitigated.


Peter Koch: [00:15:03] That's cool. And I think
that's it's a good suggestion, and we'll refer to that later on
in the podcast, too, but managers, supervisors, companies who are
going to be utilizing these MEWPS need to get access to the
standard. They need to know what's in the standard so that they
can figure out what they need to do. And if they don't get access
to the standard, then the next best thing, or maybe even the
better thing is to contact someone like yourself or their rental
company so that they know what's required of them.


Joe Gagne: [00:15:33] Absolutely. Sometimes we
find standards and regulations can be a little confusing to some
if they're not used to reading that type of jargon. So I always
recommend to reach out to a subject matter expert so we can
clarify any information or questions they may have and make us
suggestions. And we can also essentially let those folks know
what is expected, what they can do to identify and mitigate
certain hazards and circumstances on their job site and come up
with a comprehensive plan for them so they can work [00:16:00] as
safe as they possibly can.


Peter Koch: [00:16:01] Perfect. What other new
changes are in the standard? So we talked about the supervisor
training, we talked about the familiarization training. We talked
about the certification. There's been some changes in those. What
other changes are in the standard that our listeners need to know
about.


Joe Gagne: [00:16:17] So probably one of the
more impactful one falls under ANSI A ninety two point two two,
which is the safe use standard, and that requires that there be a
MEWP rescue plan documented by an organization. And on that
rescue plan, you have to have two processes or procedures
outlined. The first being what process or procedure will be
followed immediately following a fall arrest from a work
platform. The other process of procedure that needs to be clearly
defined and outlined is what will be done in the event you have
somebody stranded in an elevated position on a platform. The time
to figure out what you're going to do in those scenarios are not
when they're happening. You want to have a plan in place and
minimize the amount of time that the person [00:17:00] is either
suspended because of suspension trauma or the person being
stranded in the elevated position.


Peter Koch: [00:17:07] Yeah, right on. And there
are many organizations out there that don't have those two pieces
in place, and they will rely on the user's manual that comes with
the piece of machinery to guide them into what the procedures
are. And that's not the time you don't want to be rifling through
the book when the guy's either dangling off the side of the MEWP
or is stuck in the basket, or worse yet, is stuck in the basket
and has just been stung by a bee. And he's allergic and you've
got to get him down. What do we do? That's not the plan,


Joe Gagne: [00:17:39] And the standard clearly
states that all folks involved with the operation of the MEWP,
whether it's the supervisor, the operator or the designated
ground person, have to be familiar with that rescue plan. Again,
you want to rescue them in a timely fashion, so the time to
figure out what you're going to do is not when those
circumstances are happening.


Peter Koch: [00:17:59] Right? We'll get
[00:18:00] back to rescue in a second because it's one of
something that's near and dear to my heart. And I find that in
Maine and all across New England, we insure people that are
geographically isolated in their work. So you can't always rely
on your local fire department to show up to help you, and you
might be working by yourself, which is not where we want to go so
near and dear to my heart. We'll talk a little bit about rescue
in a second, but I want to get back to a term that you just used
that designated ground person. So the guys that I saw in the
scissor lift working on the sign the other day, there is nobody
else around. It was just those guys. The only other guy that was
around was the traffic flagger who was directing traffic. And
he's not the designated ground guy.


Joe Gagne: [00:18:42] He probably was not.


Peter Koch: [00:18:44] So tell me a little bit
about the designated ground guy responsibilities and what they
need to be trained to do.


Joe Gagne: [00:18:49] Now you're required to
have a designated ground person within visual proximity of the
machine at all time during its use and operation. And that's to
ensure if something does happen, that that person can come over
and render [00:19:00] aid so that ground person is required to be
certified as well as familiar with the machine that's being
operated. So in the event there is something wrong, they can come
right over, provide aid as necessary,


Peter Koch: [00:19:11] Right on really important
part. And I don't I think it's probably something that a lot of
companies aren't thinking about, like if they do seek or reach
out to someone for training, they're going to put the worker who
is going to be in the basket through the training, but they're
not going to put the laborer who is going to be the designated
ground guy typically through the training, because for whatever
reason, typically it's a cost thing. We've talked about that,
that productivity safety rub, there's always friction between


Joe Gagne: [00:19:40] Always competing
interests.


Peter Koch: [00:19:40] You got it. Totally. So
aside from saying, hey, it's part of the requirement and yeah,
the designated ground person will be able to rescue them. How do
you encourage the business owners or the supervisors to get those
designated ground guys into the training?


Joe Gagne: [00:19:56] Well, first we start by
educating them, letting them know what the standards [00:20:00]
are and what is expected of them. And again, trying to convey the
importance of safety and how impactful it is to their
organization, not only from a cost perspective, but from a
personnel perspective as well. All it takes is one injury and
that could throw the whole project off schedule. One of your key
employees are sidelined. So prevention is key. Coming up with
that safe work plan and eliminating the likelihood or potential
of an accident occurring. So by doing a comprehensive, safe risk
assessment. Likely you'll mitigate or eliminate any possibility
of anything going wrong.


Peter Koch: [00:20:36] Perfect, now and that
designated ground person, not the same type of requirement that
you would have for, say, permit required confined space like that
guy, the attendant his only job is to watch the hole and be in
communication so that can that designate a ground person, have
other duties like to be the laborer to move supplies and material
up to the guys that are in the basket? [00:21:00]


Joe Gagne: [00:21:00] Absolutely. They don't
necessarily need to be staring at the operator like in a trench
situation. They could be doing other tasks, but it's important
they stay within visual proximity of the machine while it's in
use and operation, and they can act as the designated ground
person for multiple machines on a job site as long as they're
staying within visual proximity. There may be an event where the
operator somehow becomes medically disabled and is unable to
communicate his need. So it's important that that designated
ground person always have his eyes on the platform to make sure
the operator is safe and doing what he needs to do up there.


Peter Koch: [00:21:31] Right on. And if there
are multiple platforms in that scenario, the designated ground
person would need to have familiarization training in each of
those machines Correct?


Joe Gagne: [00:21:43] Correct. And the nice
thing about the regulation here in the United States,
comparatively to say Canada is operators are allowed to
familiarize themselves with the machine by using the manuals,
whereas that's not the case in Canada. So every machine. One of
the most integral parts [00:22:00] of that machine is the
manufacturer's operating manual. It's a required item and it's
going to be located in the black weather resistant storage
compartment inside the work platform. I like to call it, your
mom. I call it your mom. Because if you take the first letter of
each one of the words manufacturer's operating manual, put those
three first letters together. It spells mom. So I always tell
folks when you're a little kid and say, Dad was at work and you
had a question, who would you go ask? You would always go ask
your mom and your mom was always riding with you on a machine. So
if you have any questions about what an icon means, what a switch
does, or what a process or procedure requires of you, you just
ask your mom.


Peter Koch: [00:22:37] That's perfect. I love
it. Can I steal that? Because I might very well use that the next
time I go to a policyholder


Joe Gagne: [00:22:41] Absolutely and I have to
give credit to my colleague, Suzette, who is the division safety
trainer in our southern New England area. I actually stole that
from her.


Peter Koch: [00:22:51] Perfect. All right. Well,
kudos to Suzette, because that's a pretty awesome acronym to use,
and it's a great way to remember and to also you think about it,
I go to a lot of job sites [00:23:00] where they're not renting
the piece of equipment. They've owned it for years and mom's not
present anymore.


Joe Gagne: [00:23:06] That's generally where I
find the most deficiencies on equipment is customer owned
equipment. And again, it really comes down to lack of knowledge.
They don't know what the inspection requirements are. They don't
know what is required equipment on the machine. And they
generally sometimes fall into disrepair because as long as it's
working and getting the platform up to the height, they need to
perform their job or task at, then everything's groovy for them.
But the reality is, there are some very specific requirements for
inspection and maintenance on these machines, and it's important
to keep those inspections up to date because things do come out
of calibration. Things do wear down. Things do get stressed. So
by implementing a proper inspection program and following the
intervals of inspection that the standards require, it really
cuts down on the amount of maintenance, wear and tear on the
machine. And it lessens the amount of downtime you may have on
that machine on your job site. All it takes is [00:24:00] one
machine to go down, and again, it can throw totally throw off the
entire schedule of your project. So by having a robust inspection
and maintenance program on your machine, that will eliminate a
lot of those problems before they even occur.


Peter Koch: [00:24:13] That's great. So what
happens if you don't have the manual in there, which is going to
give you the operation parameters, it's going to give you
capacities, it's going to give you the inspection parameters
around that. How do you go about getting another one? I know if
one and this would never happen if I got one from United or
really any of the other companies that reputable companies that
are renting equipment out there, it's not going to come without a
manual. But if I own a piece of equipment and I don't have it
anymore, who do I reach out to how do I get one?


Joe Gagne: [00:24:42] Well, you're more than
happy to reach out to any United Rentals local branch office and
just request one will be happy to provide you with one at no
cost. That's part of us partnering with our customers and other
people that are users of these machines to ensure they can work
on them safely. Another resources you can actually go right to
each one of the machines manufacturer's website, and usually
they're going [00:25:00] to have a document library on the
website for training manuals, maintenance manuals and generally
you can download the specific manual for your machine if you
don't have one.


Peter Koch: [00:25:09] Yeah, perfect. And I
think that's a good point. So reach out to the rental company,
but also go back to the manufacturer and see if you can find it
there. And it's a critical piece of equipment to have on board
with the piece of machinery. So as a business owner or a
superintendent of a larger company, you need to make sure that
those are present because it gives the user the operator. An
integral tool, and I know you provide a really robust training
when you come on board, but in reality, what do you expect that
operator to remember from the training that you give them? Like
how what's the percentage that you expect them to take away and
then be able to remember if you came back in a month, what would
they what would they have retained?


Joe Gagne: [00:25:51] The adult learner? So I do
recertification all the time as well and people that I've worked
with three, four or [00:26:00] five years ago. And I find that
oftentimes if they're not using that information on a daily basis
or very often they often compartmentalize that information and
they don't access it very often, so it doesn't come right up to
their memory. So I always encourage our folks to always read the
operations chapter, which is generally the second chapter and the
manual, and go over all the various nuances and unique things for
that specific machine. I like to joke around with my trainees,
and I tell them next time they're headed to the porta potty, grab
the manual and it gives them some light reading to do while
they're busy,


Peter Koch: [00:26:32] Right, there you go.
Perfect. That's a great piece because it's right and I do the
same thing. I'm sure you would do the same thing with a task that
you maybe had training on before or, you know, could be anything
from chainsaw operation to hiring a rescue for myself. Like when
I get into the rescue season, when I'm doing high angle rescue
with my ski areas for the maintenance groups, I've got to spend
some time going back through and re remembering operations,
[00:27:00] sequences, procedures, how everything functions and
works so that I know what I'm doing when I get into the when I
get onto the job site. So same thing is going to happen. If it's
your construction season and you've been laid off for the winter
or you've been transferred to plowing for a while and you're
coming back in, it's spring and you're starting to gear up for
construction. I mean, your job is to be in that lift. Great
suggestion. Find some. Find some quality time with your manual.


Joe Gagne: [00:27:27] Quality, quiet time with
your manual, wherever that may be.


Peter Koch: [00:27:30] Yes, find some quality
time with your mom, right?


Joe Gagne: [00:27:32] Exactly. Spend some time
with your mom.


Peter Koch: [00:27:35] Perfect. We should have
done this on Mother's Day would have been perfect. So let's get
back to the standard a little bit more and talk about some of the
other changes that the standard has driven. Maybe. Is there
anything that the standard has required about the machine itself?


Joe Gagne: [00:27:53] Sure. So that is
specifically addressed in ANSI A ninety two point two zero, which
evolves around the design requirements of [00:28:00] the machines
and the safety features that have to be incorporated into the
machines by the manufacturers. Probably the most impactful one
we've seen come out of this latest batch of standards is the act
of load sensing requirement in platforms where there is sensors
mounted on the substructure that the platform was mounted to, and
it is constantly and consistently monitoring and evaluating the
amount of weight in the platform. And at any point that those
sensors detect that it is over its designated weight, it's going
to lock out or prevent future or further movement towards greater
danger. It will still allow relief functions to be performed,
though, because there may be an instance where something heavy
falls on the platform. The operator has no way to get it out, but
he still needs to be able to get himself safely down to the
ground. So it's still allows those relief functions to put the
machine back into its most stable configuration.


Peter Koch: [00:28:44] So with those with the
active load sensors that are on there, they're there to tell you
when you are approaching or have exceeded or it won't let you
exceed, but you're approaching the limits of that piece of
equipment. You don't want to ever get to that scenario, right?
[00:29:00] So this comes back to the safe work planning that you
have to do ahead of time and making sure that the piece of
equipment is going to have the capacity that you need. And when I
talk about capacity, it's not just weight. I mean, they'll sense
other things as well. So besides the amount of load that's in the
basket, what are some of the other things that those sensors are
going to take a look at and then provide some feedback to the
operator?


Joe Gagne: [00:29:25] So a lot of the newer
machines have a safety system called the EMS, and that stands for
the envelope management system. And depending on the machine, it
will allow the platform to be positioned at a certain point
within the elevation arc and depending on how much weight or
capacity is in that platform, is going to determine how much that
platform is allowed to go into the area where it's safe to use
prior to these new regulations. It would be up to the user to
select the mode or operational envelope the machine could be in
based on their assessment of the weight and capacity. Now
[00:30:00] the sensors essentially determine it for you. The
machines are getting smarter every day to keep you safer every
day, and that's a really nice thing to see because we do find
most accidents that occur on these machines are generally caused
by operator error, and the operator doesn't understand the
theories behind stability on the machines. So that's something we
really like to focus on in training is to ensure they understand
those theories of physics to ensure they don't put them in a
situation where it could result in devastating outcomes.


Peter Koch: [00:30:32] Yeah, for sure, I don't I
don't believe people see, especially, say, an articulated boom
lift in the same way that you would see a crane. So when you
think about a crane and how much it can lift is going to be based
on how big the stick is and how far the stick is away from its
center. So it's the same thing with a man lift when you get a
boom lift and you're extending farther out from the center.
There's a lot that goes into understanding that, so it's good to
know that there are some [00:31:00] computers and mechanics in
there to help us figure it out. But you never want to rely solely
on the computer to make sure you're safe, so you've got to
understand what load you're going to have. So when it goes into
figuring out what capacity of lift you need, what are some what
some of the information that you might need to give the rental
person so that they can help you choose a lift that would be
configured appropriately?


Joe Gagne: [00:31:25] So the first thing we
always ask if a customer calls and makes a reservation for a
piece of equipment is how high exactly do you need to work? We
need to make sure we provide a machine that will get them to that
height. We also take into account the horizontal reach capability
of the machine. Just because a machine will reach a certain
height at maximum platform extension does not mean it's going to
have that same extension horizontally. So it's important to
understand where you're going to set the machine in relation to
the work task to ensure you have the appropriate amount of
horizontal reach for the angle that the boom is going to be at.


Peter Koch: [00:31:57] Let's take a quick break
at MEMIC, [00:32:00] while we strive to help our policyholders
prevent workplace injuries, we also understand that they're going
to happen. No workplace is immune and when the injury does
happen, a solid injury management program must be in place,
including reporting and a return to work program. Statistics show
that returning an injured worker to work in a temporary modified
duty capacity instead of keeping them out of work until there are
100 percent, will reduce both the length and the cost of the
claim, as well as increased the likelihood of a positive outcome
for the worker and the employer. Did you know that MEMIC has
created a seven step process for developing a return to work
plan, as well as a matrix to rate your current plan against what
our team has found to be the gold standard in return to work?
Check out our claim, reporting and return to work resources
atMEMIC.com/employers. Now, let's get back to today's episode.


Peter Koch: [00:33:01] Right [00:33:00] on, so
just because it's a 30 foot boom lift doesn't mean that you're
always going to get 30 feet out of it.


Joe Gagne: [00:33:07] Correct if you're at a
lower boom angle, you're likely only to get 70 to 80 percent of
the maximum vertical reach in horizontal reach.


Peter Koch: [00:33:15] Yeah. And then the
terrain itself will have limiting factors for the piece of
equipment as well, right?


Joe Gagne: [00:33:21] Absolutely. You've got to
make sure the area that you're going to base the chassis of the
machine on is firm level and will in fact support the weight of
that machine. So you have to take that into account. Often job
sites are rough disturb type of terrain, and they may have slopes
or grades on them. So it's important to do that preplanning ahead
of time. So you make sure you have an asset on site that will
actually allow you to complete the tasks that are assigned.


Peter Koch: [00:33:43] Yeah, because an
all-terrain man lift might be a little misnomer. It's not truly
all terrain. There are some limitations.


Joe Gagne: [00:33:50] There are certainly
limitations. They do have four wheel drive, but I tell people
they're not swamp buggies, so you want to make sure that you're
going to able to get the machine where you need it. And just
because [00:34:00] that machine has four wheel drive capability,
it generally only pertains to the machine being in its stowed
configuration or transport configuration. Once you actually get
the boom up in the air and start scoping out to perform work, you
generally don't want to drive and reposition the machine,
especially over rougher, disturbed terrain that could cause a lot
of what we call a cantilever effect where any type of motion or
movement is amplified through the platform all the way up through
the boom structure into the platform. And the higher up you are,
the further out you are away from the machine, the more
cantilever effect you're going to experience.


Peter Koch: [00:34:32] It's amazing. How physics
can gravity always work?


Joe Gagne: [00:34:35] It is, and that's actually
one of my favorite aspects of the training that I provide is the
theories in the physics behind the stability characteristics. I
try to make it as interactive as possible. I get the guys up in
the classroom and I have them hold a box or a heavier object
close to their chest, and then I'll have them hold that box
further out at a 45 degree angle and lock their elbows. And they
can see for themselves that the three characteristics [00:35:00]
that negatively affect stability height reach and motion they can
see with their own eyes and their own body that those three
factors do negatively affect stability, so it helps to put things
in a context for folks that they can understand. And that's
really, in my opinion, what makes a trainer a good trainer?


Peter Koch: [00:35:16] Yeah, absolutely. That's
a really great point. The more that you can get hands on, the
more that they're going to take back with them and they'll
remember that activity well, more than they remember the
PowerPoint slide that you might have spent 30 minutes on trying
to make it look really nice.


Joe Gagne: [00:35:30] Absolutely. I try not to
use any PowerPoints or audio visual aids in my training. I think
we've all probably sat through training before where we had to
concentrate really hard not to fall asleep because the subject
matter actually wasn't very exciting or the instructor themselves
wasn't very engaging. So I really try to make my training's fun
interactive and get the guys laughing. And the way I look at it
is if they're having fun and they're learning at the same time,
that's a recipe for success.


Peter Koch: [00:35:57] Yeah, absolutely. We're
right on the same page with it. Can I ask you a personal
[00:36:00] question about how you got into training? So what got
you interested in doing training?


Joe Gagne: [00:36:05] Well, actually, it all
started off. I come from a construction family. My dad owns a
construction company in Windham. And I was very fortunate in the
regard that he allowed me to operate a lot of his really big,
heavy equipment at a very young age. I owe it really all to my
father. He was always the type of dad that showed me how to do
things rather than did things for me, and I really found that
that was instrumental in leading me to do what I do now. I've
always been very technically orientated. I like to pay attention
to details, so I like to master tasks. So combining that type of
guidance from my father throughout my life and the exposure I was
fortunate enough to have around his construction equipment, I'm
able to do what I do now.


Peter Koch: [00:36:51] Now that's fantastic.
It's great to have a mentor in your life like that, whether it's
your dad or it could be a teacher, or maybe even a supervisor or
someplace [00:37:00] that was able to give you opportunity to
learn like that. And then you can see it's paid off in spades for
you.


Joe Gagne: [00:37:08] It has my parents love to
tell the story about whenever there was a snowstorm growing up. I
grew up here in the Lakes region, Sebago Lakes Region, and I
would always look forward to snow events because I would actually
go and ride with my dad and go plowing with them. And I would
just always be fascinated by the mechanics of the equipment that
was being used and operated, and I would just study things and
commit to memory what he was doing, why he was doing it, and how
different factors and things affected what he was doing. So I've
always really enjoyed understanding at a deep level how things
operate.


Peter Koch: [00:37:41] Yeah. And then having the
opportunity to be able to transfer that information to someone
else. I mean that background that you describe is truly a
background of someone who can take that information and then find
an outlet with somebody else for it, whether it's learning on
your own. And then it really seems like you have a love not only
[00:38:00] to learn something new, but to transfer or transmit
that information to somebody else.


Joe Gagne: [00:38:05] It's one thing to become a
subject matter expert on something. It's another thing to become
a subject matter expert and then be able to convey and
communicate that information to other people. So it's
understandable, digestible and committed to memory.


Peter Koch: [00:38:18] Yeah, interesting. You
know, you talk about what makes the most impact on someone. We're
going to get into the fall protection conversation. So you think
about how to convince someone that, well, you need rescue right
away. Yeah. Yeah, fine. Fine. Bring it up to a bunch of
construction guys or a bunch of maintenance guys are like, Yeah,
fine, fine. We'll take care of it. It'll not be a problem. Well,
the sequence of events that I try to do when we're doing a fall
protection rescue training is when you go through the limits and
capacities and design and function of the fall protection
equipment. And then you have them inspect it and then you have
them put it on. Get it, fit appropriately, body check [00:39:00]
them and then suspend them. So hook it up to the dorsal d ring.
Lift them about six or eight inches off the ground and say, How's
it feel now? And so if your rescue was 30 minutes away, how do
you think you'll feel in 30 minutes? Guaranteed. The answer is
going to be it needs to happen now. Rescue has to happen now. And
so all of a sudden, the urgency of kind of like holding the box
at 45 degrees with your arms locked really connects them to the
physics of what the machine's feeling. The same type of deal.
That's what they're going to remember. And that's what makes it
real for him.


Joe Gagne: [00:39:35] Absolutely. You have to
connect either a physical or an emotional response to the
information you're trying to convey to the people. So one of the
things I like to do when I started training session is I like to
start off by doing introductions of all the course participants.
I asked them their name and I asked them how much experience they
have on each piece of equipment. I also asked them what they like
to do outside of work. And that's my way of sneakily asking them
why they work safely. [00:40:00] I think we all know if you ask
somebody, why do you work safely? They might kind of grin at you
and give you a snarky answer. But if you ask them what they like
to do outside of work, nine times out of 10, I find people
mention their family or loved ones spending time with their
children, grandchildren or significant other, or maybe even a
pet. And I'm looking for that motivation that they might need if
I get down the road with them further in the training session
where they might need a little more guidance, or I might need
them to channel why they want to do this task correctly. And
that's my way of knowing why people work safely.


Peter Koch: [00:40:35] Yeah, it's great because
it really does help you connect, and some of the stuffs can get
kind of dry. And if they're not used to using the procedures that
you're presenting to them, like, why do I have to go through all
of the checks every single day? I just use the piece of equipment
yesterday. Why do I have to go through the basket checks in the
ground floor? And why do I have to do all that? Why can't I just
check it off? Because I knew it worked before? Well if [00:41:00]
you need to go home to deal with your family or your friend or
whatever, make it real, and I think that's a good way to help. If
you need buy in, it's a really good way to get that.


Joe Gagne: [00:41:10] Absolutely you need to
establish that personal connection with your course participants.
And there are a few times where I've had to say, You know what? I
know you may not be being very successful right now, but I really
need you to take a few moments to compose yourself and focus on
the task at hand. And then I may bring up if I remember from the
introductions that morning that he planned on going hunting or
fishing with this child this weekend. And I'd say, you know what?
It really be horrible if you got hurt or injured and weren't able
to take your son or daughter hunting or fishing this weekend,
wouldn't it? And then you really see those connections, the light
bulb moment go off in their head and they realize why they're
truly there that day. And it's to learn to make sure that they
walk away from our training with the skills and knowledge to
operate these machines safely because it can significantly impact
their livelihood.


Peter Koch: [00:41:59] Yeah, it's not just
[00:42:00] the box to check. It really, truly isn't a box to
check. Let's talk about the rescue part. So you described that
there's requirements for two scenarios or two types of rescue
plans that need to be in place. And one is if the machine itself
is no longer operable and then the other is if someone actually
falls outside of the machine and what has to happen? So what are
some of the requirements around each of those? If I had to put a
plan together this week for a piece of equipment specific to my
company, what things would need to be in it for each of those
plans?


Joe Gagne: [00:42:32] So there's generally three
solutions. The first solution is self rescue. If the person is
stranded in the work platform, they would rely on the auxiliary
lowering system to bring the platform down to the ground. If the
auxiliary system wasn't working, you would rely on your ground
person. Now, if self rescue is not viable, you would next bring
in a machine of equal or greater size in the platform stranded
at, or if the person is suspended, you would do either a platform
to platform transfer [00:43:00] or you would literally place the
platform underneath the person that is suspended and literally
scoop them out of the air. The third option is technical rescue,
and that would be provided by EMS. You would have to call your
local fire department. Describe the scenario or circumstance you
find yourselves in. I always tell folks, let them know
specifically how high the platform is because not all ladder
trucks the same size. So you want to make sure that the public
safety sends the appropriate asset that is going to be able to
solve the problem that you find yourself in.


Peter Koch: [00:43:29] For sure. And not all
local EMS companies have a ladder truck. You get out in some of
the more rural areas and that call for heavy rescue because
that's what they're really going to be looking for is going to
might come from a neighboring town, which extends the amount of
time that the person is going to be suspended and there are
significant consequences for someone's health. The longer that
they're suspended in that in the harness. So you had mentioned
suspension trauma. One of my colleagues was  [00:44:00]doing
a fall protection training actually at one of his one of his
policyholders, and he went around the group and started asking
them about their experience with fall protection. And one of the
typical questions he always asks is so has anybody taken a fall?
And you know, after a while, you see somebody in the background
who's kind of nodding his head and said, Can you want to tell us
about that? And the description that the guy gave this time was
it wasn't a far fall, but he was connected to his dorsal d ring
fell and actually took about a six foot freefall until the shock
absorber connected with him. And he actually pulled back his
T-shirt and he had bruises around his traps and through his
collar bones because of the force of just that six foot fall. So
it's not just suspension trauma. There's other injuries that you
can sustain by coming out of the basket or falling off any
platform truly.


Joe Gagne: [00:44:54] Absolutely. And that's
really where it's important to understand the different types of
lanyards that are available for fall protection. [00:45:00] There
are two different types of lanyards. There's fall arrest that
stops a fall that's in progress of what you just described.
You're going to fall the length of the lanyard before it begins
to catch you. The other and more preferable and safer lanyard
style is what we call a self retractable lanyard, which falls
under fall restraint that prevents a fall from occurring. So if
you slip, trip or lose traction on the platform as soon as your
body accelerates, there's a centrifugal break that locks the
lanyard in place, and that's going to prevent you from actually
falling. So I highly recommend the use of fall restraint, self
retractable saddle lanyards over fall arrest lanyards all day,
everyday.


Peter Koch: [00:45:35] No great, and let's talk
a little bit about that piece as well. So if I'm going to connect
my fall restraint in my MEWP, where am I going to connect that
to?


Joe Gagne: [00:45:49] You always want to connect
to one of the manufacturer provided designated anchor points. You
can't just connect your lanyard to any old guardrail or
connection point on the machine. Every single designated anchor
point is designed and engineered [00:46:00] to support the. All
of a falling person and actually more than a falling person, if
you do not connect to the right point, it's not going to do its
job the way it's designed to do.


Peter Koch: [00:46:09] So are those points
designed to where are they located? Are they typically located,
you know, waist or chest high? Or are they located on the floor?


Joe Gagne: [00:46:18] On most boom lifts, they
are generally located at the mid rail and intersection of the
vertical stanchion on scissor lifts, depending on the brand and
model. Sometimes they may be lower down near the intersections of
the toe board and the vertical stanchion. It all depends on the
machine.


Peter Koch: [00:46:32] Perfect. And in that from
a standard standpoint, there's a requirement to have fall
prevention or fall protection in a boom lift. How about in a
scissor lift? Is there a requirement by the standard to have fall
protection harness and lanyard within the scissors lift?


Joe Gagne: [00:46:50] There is no standard that
requires that in the operation of a scissor lift, although I do
highly encourage everybody to always wear fall protection in a
scissor lift, specifically [00:47:00] using a safe, retractable
style lanyard. Oftentimes, we find that machines tip because the
operator goes over the railing, and if he's wearing a fall arrest
lanyard, the lateral side force applied to the top of the railing
from the lanyard going over the top of it can be enough to pull
the machine down on top of somebody. So I highly encourage the
use of fall protection using a self retractable style lanyard on
a scissor lift at all times,


Peter Koch: [00:47:23] Because that's going to
help you stay inside the basket, which is the goal because your
true fall protection in either is your primary fall protection is
going to be your guardrails to begin with


Joe Gagne: [00:47:33] Correct. There's two types
of fall protection. There's fall protection that's built into the
machine itself, which is the guard rail system, and there's self
worn fall protection. So it's important to understand the
differences between both of those and make sure you use both to
your advantage.


Peter Koch: [00:47:46] Yeah, capabilities and
limitations, for sure. And that's one of the questions that comes
up often. And actually, that was witnessed by myself while
looking at a couple of guys in that scissors lift. So you could
see they had fall protection. [00:48:00] They were wearing a
harness, they were wearing a lanyard. But you can see where the
lanyard was connected to and they actually had it tied back to
itself around the upright corner stanchion of the guardrail. So
not at the floor, but it was in the middle. So if they had
fallen, the connection point would have slid up into the
basically a foot below the top rail and then it would have gone
over. So he would have been fairly. That would have been a pretty
sizable fall for that scissor lift to have to withstand,


Joe Gagne: [00:48:29] Yeah, the safest place
always to be on that machine is within the confines of the
guardrail system. It's your primary means of fall protection.


Peter Koch: [00:48:36] Yeah, 10-4. And so that's
one of the things to familiarize yourself with when you get in
where your connection points, because I almost guarantee it. I
didn't look, I couldn't see it from there, but I would imagine
that there were some manufacturers designed and installed fall
protection points within that machine.


Joe Gagne: [00:48:51] There always is, and
they're generally going to be located with a decal letting them
know that it is an improved attachment point. You're required to
have all decals [00:49:00] that are provided by the manufacturer
when the machine is manufactured to be present on the machine.
And oftentimes we find as machines, age decals, some bleach or
they get peeled off or they fade. So it's always important to
ensure that all safety decals on the machine are visible and
legible.


Peter Koch: [00:49:16] Yeah, it goes back to
your conversation about inspections and having a robust
maintenance program, because if I can inspect it all the time and
I'm recognizing that, hey, some of these stickers or these decals
need to be replaced, not quite illegible yet, but they're getting
close. You can get them ordered, you can have them in a month.
And then when it comes time for annual maintenance or monthly
maintenance, they can be replaced.


Joe Gagne: [00:49:41] Absolutely. If you do own
your own equipment, you can call any United Rentals branch
throughout North America. Let them know what make and model
machine you have, and we can order up the decals required for
that machine.


Peter Koch: [00:49:53] Cool. Very cool. So we're
getting towards the end of the podcast here, so I got a couple of
questions for you. But [00:50:00] before I jump to those
questions. Anything else that we need to talk about that we
haven't discussed so far that you want our listeners to know
about the standards or about the MEWPs themselves. That would be
a key point that they could take away.


Joe Gagne: [00:50:14] Well, the biggest thing is
that now with the new standard, they've broken these machines
down into different types based on their classifications and
capabilities. So it's important that they're trained specifically
on the type in group that the machine falls within. It's not
generalized across the entire board, so you want to make sure
that your training is going to comply with the standard and
regulation and that you're being trained on the type and group of
machine that you'll actually be operating great.


Peter Koch: [00:50:42] And that goes back to the
safe use planning of, you know, making sure that you have all the
information and you're going to go back to your rental person,
your rental company, give them that information, answer the
questions forthright so that they can not only get you into the
right piece of equipment, but then provide you the [00:51:00]
training that. Necessary for you to become certified and familiar
with the equipment.


Joe Gagne: [00:51:04] Absolutely. Most folks use
self-propelled boom lifts that you can operate and control from
the platform. The other type of machine that's pretty popular in
the marketplace is the towable type of boom, and those fall under
a different group and type. So therefore you need specific
training for that type and group. Just because you've been
trained on a self-propelled boom lift does not mean that you're
certified to operate a towable boom.


Peter Koch: [00:51:28] So you had a towable boom
and you see those often, especially in the small contractors and
painters love those, especially so the towable boom lift. You've
got a self-propelled boom lift. What's another class or type of
boom if that's out there?


Joe Gagne: [00:51:42] The other class is the
scissor lift, which falls under Class 3A, and that allows the
platform to elevate directly over the circumference of the
chassis. So it's again important that you have training that is
specific to the type of machine you're using.


Peter Koch: [00:51:56] Perfect. Awesome. And
again, there's a lot to this. I'm [00:52:00] sure that if you
have an industrious group of people at your company and they're
really familiar with the standards, they can go through the
user's manual, they can create a training program, but it might
just be a better use of time, effort and money to reach out to
someone like yourself or your company to have them come out and
do training for you so that you're taking care of that and then
you can come back and do recertification or re familiarization
training with them.


Joe Gagne: [00:52:32] Absolutely. A Lot of times
customers will want to designate somebody within their
organization as their trainer and send them to our train the
trainer program. It's important to make sure that the person that
you do designate for that role, somebody that has a lot of
experience on the machine and they are a subject matter expert. I
caution organizations from just sending. A certain guy that they
might feel might be the best person. And that's because if
they're not training or providing that information on a daily
basis and staying up to date [00:53:00] on what the current
standards are with the best operating practices are and what the
new rules and regulations may be, they may not be providing the
highest level of training that's available in the marketplace. So
that's where it's really important to reach out to somebody that
is a subject matter expert on these matters so that they can
provide you with the highest level of training that's available.


Peter Koch: [00:53:19] Yeah, and it's not just
being a subject matter expert about the piece of equipment, and
you talked about it before in your interest of training and how
you got to be the trainer that you are. Normally, when you get in
a company, you get the position of training someone. You're
really good at your job, which doesn't mean you're really good at
training people. And it really needs to be the relationship of
subject matter experts and good trainer needs to be, well, merged
in that particular person so that you can assure that the people
are coming out of that self training, or that the self-driven
training from your company is as functional and as good as it can
be. Because at the end of the day, like [00:54:00] you said
earlier on, the vast majority of incidents that occur with the
MEWPs come from operator error and lots of times it comes because
the person's not as familiar as they should be with the piece of
machinery or they've missed the piece of the training. So I can't
state it enough that having a good trainer and that trainer
understanding everything about the piece of equipment being that
subject matter expert, it's a key thing. Truly key thing.


Joe Gagne: [00:54:33] Absolutely, and I consider
myself a constant learner. I am always trying to learn more about
these machines. I rely on our technicians a lot for information
because they are working on them day in and day out. So
oftentimes I'll find a few minutes and go into one of the service
technicians in our organization's bay and just kind of pick their
brain a little bit and ask them different things. And the wealth
of information that they have is incredible. So I consider myself
a constant learner. I'm always trying to [00:55:00] gain new
information or to come up with different ways to be able to
communicate that information to my group of trainees so that they
can digest it, understand it and apply it to their circumstance
or scenario.


Peter Koch: [00:55:11] That's pretty cool. So
that kind of transitions to my one of my final questions. So this
is a I think it's an interesting question. I had asked me once
before when I was working for the ski industry in a particular
area. So if cost and technology were not an issue and you have
the opportunity to design something yourself, what would it be
like? What kind of man lift would you design? No, like talking to
the technicians and seeing how they're used all over the place.
Like what would be the thing that you would design?


Joe Gagne: [00:55:44] Oh, wow, that's a great
question. I think a lot of the things that I would incorporate
into these machines generally would not be feasible because of
the use in nature.


Peter Koch: [00:55:52] Ok,


Joe Gagne: [00:55:52] That the machines are used
for. I would love if there was a laser sight on a platform so
[00:56:00] that the operator could appropriately line themselves
up and establish trajectory on the boom before they scope out to
the work surface. Another thing that I've kind of just thrown
around my head, but I know it's not feasible as an airbag system.
So if the machine begins to tip, airbags would deploy around the
work platform to protect the operator. But again, those are
likely unfeasible given the nature and use of this type of
equipment in construction environments. But there's some things
that I've thought about and I'm like, How can I make these
machines safer? So maybe one day I'll come up with a great idea,
patent it and become a millionaire.


Peter Koch: [00:56:35] Yeah, you never know. I
mean, those are two great ideas right away. Just like I didn't. I
wasn't even thinking about the basket. I was thinking about
airbags just around the base of the machine that that blows up
and keeps the machine from tipping over there. So I hadn't even
thought of the laser sight, but what a great idea to be able to
line up where you're going to go. That's a phenomenal idea.


Joe Gagne: [00:56:54] We oftentimes folks get
themselves in the most trouble when they move or reposition the
platform while they're scoped out to their work surface.
[00:57:00] Any type of movement, the higher up and the further
out you are, it creates a large amount of sway, swing and bounce.
So I try to impress upon my course participants that it's
imperative that you line yourself up correctly and make any
changes to your trajectory sooner than later. You don't want to
be making big movements while you're scoped away from the
machine, because that's where that cantilever effect comes in and
can really cause some problems. The last thing you want is to
smash through a window you might have just mounted or replaced
for your customer.


Peter Koch: [00:57:28] I was just talking to a
client of mine that had a contractor that just did that. They
were about seven stories up and they were the contractor had come
in. They were painting the side of the building and they put the
corner of the man left of the boom lift through a window. So
yeah, on movement, right? So it wasn't because it was stationary.
The guy was trying to reposition and moved made a larger move.
And it came smashing back through the window.


Joe Gagne: [00:57:53] Exactly, and that's really
one of the things I like to focus on during the practical portion
of the training that I provide [00:58:00] is the correct
positioning procedures. Oftentimes we find people just assume
they can scope out and then boom themselves up. And next thing
you know, they're swinging around and swaying six or eight feet
as soon as they let go of that controller. So there's methods in
this processes that I like to teach and share with my folks. So
that doesn't happen.


Peter Koch: [00:58:19] Yeah. And so it brings up
a great point. You know, it's not just the certification
training, but it truly is the familiarization training and even
more than that, being a competent operator in their
understanding, the limitations and the capacities of that machine
because they all go into your plan, how I'm going to get from
point A to point B, where am I going to move? How is it going to
function? Can I get there? What do I need to do? So great points.


Joe Gagne: [00:58:42] Absolutely. That's really
where the whole safe work planning is so integral. You want to
evaluate whatever your task is and you want to think through the
contingencies that could occur. You're always going to be better
off solving or coming up with a solution to your issue. If you've
already [00:59:00] thought through the various scenarios that
could present itself, given your circumstance.


Peter Koch: [00:59:03] It's always easier to do
it and design than retrofit, right? So I


Joe Gagne: [00:59:06] Always have a Plan B, C
and sometimes even a Plan D for everything I do.


Peter Koch: [00:59:10] A man of like mind with
me, for sure. Hey, so one last question for you till we get to
the end of the podcast here. So what's one thing that you know
now about training people that you wish you knew when you started
out?


Joe Gagne: [00:59:23] So one thing that I wish I
knew when I first started was. You can only give somebody so much
information in a training session and expect them to commit it to
memory. So I've really refined and sharpen my pencil on the
information and the training that I communicate to my folks to
hit on the high points. The things that are most impactful to
them. If you provide somebody with too much information in a
short amount of time, they don't have the ability to
compartmentalize that information and then pull it back up when
needed. So I really focused on certain key things in my
curriculum that I hope my folks will remember and [01:00:00] key
things that are going to make the most impact on them working
safely and getting home at the end of the workday.


Peter Koch: [01:00:06] That's an awesome point,
and I think it's a really great point for any trainer out there
to remember, especially if you're just starting out because you
are the subject matter expert. You've got all this knowledge
floating in your head, you've got all these great resources and
you get an hour or two hours or three hours and you came to this
information over years and years of having hands on and learning
and understanding, like you said, being a constant learner. And
now you're trying to impart that years and years of information
in just a short period of time. And you know, the mind will only
absorb what the buck can withstand. That's the idea. And the
brain will only absorb so much information. So being able to
compartmentalize it and sharpen the pencil, like you said, is a
great it's a great suggestion and thought for new trainers.


Joe Gagne: [01:00:53] One of the other
strategies that I've implemented in my curriculum is I try to
establish habits, one specifically involving the worksite
[01:01:00] hazard assessment, where any time you step on to a new
worksite or a new environment that you'll be working in. You
always want to be looking for certain types of hazards. So
throughout my training, I have them do that exercise several
times because I'm trying to get them to develop and form a habit.
So something that they're going to do subconsciously without
having to think about it. So every time they step on that job
site, they're looking for those five specific types of hazards.


Peter Koch: [01:01:26] Cool. That's great.
Establishing and especially establishing habits, especially when
you have a skill that you're trying to impart and when you start
thinking about operating a man lift, there's a skill involved. So
there has to be a habit in understanding your work environment
needs to be something that you just do out of habit. Great
suggestion again for that. So we're getting to the end of the
podcast here. And the final question truly, the final question
this time is so where can our listeners find more about MEWPs and
then more about [01:02:00] United Rentals?


Joe Gagne: [01:02:01] Well, folks can find more
about United Rentals by going right to our website
www.UnitedRentals.com, and if they're looking for a specific
training resources, there is a menu on there where you can select
training. But if you want to go directly to our training website,
it's UnitedRentals.com/training. And if they're looking to
schedule or book any type of training for their folks, all they
would need to do is call their local United Rentals branch,
request that and they will put you in touch with folks like
myself.


Peter Koch: [01:02:29] Perfect. That's awesome.
And if I'm looking for just information beyond that and I'm not
quite ready yet to call the rental company, where do I find more
information about mobile elevated work platforms?


Joe Gagne: [01:02:41] Another great resource
online is IPAF.org. IPAF is an organization that stands for
international powered access federation, and there are a group of
stakeholders in the industry. There's folks from my organization
that sit on their board of directors, as well as representatives
from the manufacturers of these equipment. [01:03:00] And they're
really the trade group that is really trying to push safety and
establish best practices and come up with training curriculums
that in the end. Turn regular folks into great equipment
operators.


Peter Koch: [01:03:16] That's awesome, great
resource. I was just checking that out the other day to prepare
for the podcast, and there are a ton of great resources on that
website. So I think between that website and then reaching out to
you guys, there's not a whole lot else that you would need to
become that good equipment operator for a mobile elevator work
platform,


Joe Gagne: [01:03:35] Just have to seek out the
information


Peter Koch: [01:03:37] Right on. So thanks again
for joining us today. I really appreciate you being here and
sharing your expertise with us, Joe.


Joe Gagne: [01:03:42] Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.


Peter Koch: [01:03:44] Right on and to all of
our listeners out there. Thanks for joining us. We have been
speaking about mobile elevated work platforms with Joe Gagne,
division safety trainer for United Rentals. If you have any
questions about mobile elevated work platforms or would like to
hear more about a particular [01:04:00] topic on our podcast.
Email me at Podcast@MEMIC.com. Also, check out our show notes at
MEMIC.com/podcast, where you can find additional resources around
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