Situational Awareness and Forktruck Camera Systems with Chris Burns

According to the National Safety Council, forklifts were the
source of 79 work related fatalities and 8,140 non-fatal injuries
involving days away from work in 2019 alone. 


Looking back at the data the National Safety Council has, the
number of non-fatal forklift related workplace injuries continues
to increase every year since 2015.  The top 3 causes of
these injuries are Fire and explosion, Stuck by, caught
between.  Most of these are driven by a lack of situational
awareness on the part of the operator or other workers.


On this episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast, I speak with
Chris Burns, the co-founder of Midwest Fleet and Safety, a full
service GPS and Safety Solutions company to help us look at a
unique solution to the situational awareness problem when
operating a forklift.


Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and
welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter
Koch. According to the National Safety Council, forklifts were
the source of seventy nine work related injuries or fatalities,
and eight thousand one hundred and forty non-fatal injuries
involving days away from work in 2019. So looking back at the
data that the National Safety Council has the number of non-fatal
forklift related injuries or workplace injuries continues to
increase from twenty fifteen. So if you go back to twenty fifteen
and you go back a little bit before that, they had been
declining. But in twenty fifteen they started to spike and they
were jumping up by a few hundred every year. And the top three
causes of those injuries are fire and explosion. So most of your
fork trucks or forklifts are going to be propane, a lot of
propane accidents or injuries, especially if one is going to tip
over, struck by injuries and then [00:01:00] caught in between
injuries. Most of these are driven by a lack of situational
awareness on the part of the operator or other workers that are
going to be around the operator. So if I look back at my history
and I had the opportunity to operate a forklift or at least a
tractor with forks on it way back when in my early work history
and I think about how situational awareness played a big part in
my being successful or not. It really did. And I can tell you, I
didn't have a lot of huge fails, but I had a number of close
calls. And one of those, and I'll remember this to this day
happened when I was I had just picked up a lift. We were picking
up actually lifts of hoses and I was paying attention to the
other people who are in the space. And I backed up and I backed
up into a pallet that had a replacement water pump for our
snowmaking system. Fortunately, I didn't hit it hard enough to
knock the pump over and I didn't push the pump. I didn't break
the pump, but I did damage the pallet itself and the pallet of
hoses [00:02:00] that were on the forks fell off as well, so
didn't really have a successful day. But I didn't hurt anybody. I
didn't get hurt myself. We didn't have a lot of damage, but
certainly there were some issues there and I wasn't paying
attention. Or at least I wasn't paying attention to the right
thing. I didn't have good situational awareness before I started
to move. And I bet you there's a number of people out there who
are listening who have either been witnessed to a situation like
that or have been in a situation like that. Or maybe you've been
in a situation where you've actually had an injury. You might
have been struck by someone who was operating a fork truck or
unfortunately, you might have been the person who did the
striking. Well, to help us look at a unique solution to that
situational awareness problem, especially when you're operating
forklifts or really any vehicles, is Chris Burns and among other
specialties. Chris is the co-founder of Midwest fleet and Safety.
There are full service GPS and safety [00:03:00] solutions
company. Chris and his partner Rob founded Midwest four years ago
to help fill service and communication gaps they identified in
industries that they worked with. So with a team of experts that
have close to 30 years of experience in the telematics and safety
industries, Midwest has grown to deliver products like innovative
camera systems that can be used to enhance situational awareness
in any industry that uses vehicles to move material. So, Chris?
Welcome to the podcast today. I appreciate having you on.


Chris Burns: [00:03:31] Thank you so much for
having me. Really looking forward to the conversation today. Glad
to be on. And that was a heck of an introduction. Probably better
than I would have prepared for you. So I appreciate that very
much.


Peter Koch: [00:03:43] Yeah, no worries. I'm
excited. You know, we had a conversation a few days ago, you had
reached out to me and thinking about different solutions. You
were telling me about this camera system that that you have. And
I really want to get talking about that and how it's been able to
help with safety, quality and productivity since, [00:04:00] you
know, that's really what this podcast is all about is to help
people understand that there's more ideas out there than they
might think about how to provide solutions. But before we jump
into the camera systems, I want you to tell me a little bit about
Midwest fleet and safety. You're based out of Appleton,
Wisconsin, and I want you to just tell me a little bit about your
history, how you got there and where you're at today.


Chris Burns: [00:04:25] Yeah. Well, thanks. It's
kind of a long story. I don't think it's as interesting as other
people might, but I've got a good friend of mine, Rob, who
approached me about his business and his industry. And he had
been working in this space for about 20 years, and he worked in
the space primarily as an installer. So he owns an audio video
automotive type business, and he was approached by many of the
larger GPS telematics companies to do installation work because
most of them, believe it or not, do not have boots on the ground.
They [00:05:00] are primarily a manufacturer a seller and then
they hire third party contracts to do the installation work, and
so as time went on, going into twenty eighteen twenty nineteen,
some of these companies, well, we'll leave names out just to be
respectful. But what would happen is they would call him and say,
Hey, we've got a client in Madison it's two hours away. They are
going to have GPS next week. We would like we need two installers
technicians to go down to the installation work and have done a
one day 12 vehicles. No problem will be there. Eight a.m. So the
team would show up. They drive two hours only to find out the
client has not received the product from the manufacturer. And so
as a business, you have to bill the very large carrier for four
hours of your time multiplied by two employees. And so that would
happen continuously and sometimes happen twice over the course
[00:06:00] of one month. And that would then leave a customer
waiting anywhere from four weeks to eight weeks. Because then you
have that phone tag game of, well, the client's available next
week, Monday and Thursday between eight a.m. and 10 a.m. Well,
we're not available, OK, we'll call them back and find out. Tag,
you're it. And then customers would then say to robber's
installers, Hey, you know, this is this is painful. You know,
we're not able to get the training that we want. If we have an
issue, we'll call. We'll wait on hold for two hours or four
hours. And you can imagine most people, whether it be a business
owner or even a receptionist, do not have that kind of time or
that luxury in a day. And then they were asking, Hey, can we just
work with you directly? And the answer was no, because at the
time we were not a GPS company, we were just an installer. And so
the question became as well, could we do this? And then we did
some research and found out, Well, yeah, we could. We could be a
reseller [00:07:00] and we could be the company that sells the
technology and the product, but also does the installation. And
so moving forward, when companies would say, Yeah, we'd love to
entertain the solution, but we've got a three year revolving
contract. And then I had to ask, Well, what's the revolving
contract? And they said, Well, you know, if we've got 10 vehicles
and we add one, all 10 start over. And I thought, Wow, that's
pretty tough. So your contract is started over three or four
times since you started working with them and they say, yeah, the
only way to get out is to buy out of the contract. And that's ten
thousand dollars, we'll say. And so we saw an opportunity to not
lock customers into a contract. No revolving contracts offer free
and unlimited customer service, competitive pricing. And when
people call, they can talk to a real person who can solve their
issue real time or at least within one or two business days. And
so that's how Midwest fleet and safety was [00:08:00] founded. We
were just Midwest fleet solutions, but then we got to find that a
lot of our customers, particularly in the construction space,
we'd sit down and we talk about things like safety. And the
question was, Well, we're more interested in the safety. And I
said, Well, tell me more. And that that is where we learned about
a year and a half ago that the majority of the businesses that we
work with, yes, they would love to track their assets. That's
important because you want to know where your assets are. You
want to know that your people are protected and safe. But
ultimately, the number one priority was that businesses large and
small wanted to ensure that their people, their most important
asset, is safe on the job. And so questions became as, "Well,
what can you do to help us with safety? And one client had told
us a story both of these clients are in the construction space
had said that, you know, look, we had a couple of accidents
[00:09:00] where we had some job boxes and some very expensive
equipment that was either ran over or ran into that cause several
thousand dollars or thousands of dollars in damage. And
unfortunately, this stuff happens a lot. How do we prevent that?
And so that's where my partner, Rob said, Well, you know, we do a
lot of backup cameras, we do a lot of camera systems. Why don't
we just put a couple of cameras on your telehandler and, you
know, see how that goes? And he's like, I can basically modify or
manufacture a system exclusively for you and a two camera system
turn into a four camera system. And then next thing you know,
safety becomes about seventy five percent of our business, and
I'll go on to talk more about it. But I don't want to eat into
your next question here. And so we've been doing the safety side
of the business for over a year, about a year and a half, and we
found ourselves really expanding into things like forklift safety
[00:10:00] lights known as blue lights or red lights. Camera
systems and a lot of other products in the safety space, and
we've just found that as much as, yes, companies want to track
their assets. Right now, number one priority is safety and safety
of their employees. And from there, you know, once we have set
their company up in a position where they feel like they can
elevate the safety quality, then they say, Hey, we know you do
telematics? Can you help us out with that too? So as a byproduct,
we hope that we can earn their business in the telematics side.
But it's been a lot of fun because ultimately companies value
that. And I'll tell you what, we'll talk about this later. The
employees value it, too, and it's been a lot more popular with
staff than we imagined and even then our clients would have ever
imagined.


Peter Koch: [00:10:52] Yeah, it's a pretty cool
story. Like you said, we'll get into that more because there is a
really interesting connection between what the [00:11:00]
supervisors and how the staff see things and how that information
gets back up to management and how that helps to drive some of
these decisions. But I really think this is an interesting
solution to that problem of situational awareness. You talked
about the equipment damage. You talked about the shrinkage and
losses from things maybe being dropped off the forks or, you
know, you go back to the National Safety Council. Information
about injuries that have occurred with forklifts and those struck
by injuries are almost guaranteed when someone struck by the
forklift is a situational awareness issue with either the person
that's operating and or the person that's operating or working
around that particular piece of equipment. So I guess let's just
talk a little bit in your perspective and it has, as you see it,
with the success of those camera systems. And then you had talked
a little bit about the lighting systems that you have for
[00:12:00] forklifts. Why is situational awareness essential? And
then how did those systems really help increase situational
awareness for the operator when they when they're picking
something up or they're moving material?


Chris Burns: [00:12:13] Yeah, that's a great
question, and I'm glad you asked that because when we talk about
safety, a lot of times, whether it be in a presentation, sales
calls, people look past situational awareness and they focus
specifically on the safety and like, how can this increase
productivity and efficiencies and stuff? But awareness is really
important. People think of situational awareness is, Hey, I know
what's going on around me, I know what's going on here. But
that's not always the case. And you know, when you ask me about
situational awareness, I thought to myself, Well, what does that
mean to me? What does it mean to other people? So I googled it.
And there's a really quick definition here. And it says
situational awareness has been recognized as a critical yet
elusive foundation [00:13:00] for success decision making across
a broad range of situations, many of which involve the protection
of human life property, including law enforcement, aviation, et
cetera, et cetera. And then the last sentence is lacking in
adequate situational awareness has been identified as one of the
primary factors in accidents attributed to human error. So I give
you this example, which is I live near a construction site just
so happens to be about two blocks down. There's a new development
with some apartment complexes going up, and it's been going on
for about six months or more. And once they complete one, they
got another one already in progress. So there's a lot of
telehandlers and construction equipment over there. And I said to
my wife the other day, I said, I don't even hear that anymore. I
don't hear the backup beeping, I don't hear the trucks, I don't
hear the nail guns. I just kind of tuned it out. Now, [00:14:00]
put yourself in the situation of any one of those workers on the
site and they hear that stuff more than I do. My wife would call
it selective hearing, but their situational awareness has
probably decreased because they become, let's say, numb to or
callous to that sound. Now let's just say, for example, that
their situational awareness is heightened. They may see what's
happening or be fully aware of what's going on around them. But
does that mean the operator of that telehandler is fully aware?
So situational awareness is a two way street, in my opinion, the
way of an operator or of someone moving or driving, whatever the
case may be. So when it comes to situational awareness, you talk
about these camera systems. Well, our camera systems in most
cases are a four camera, sometimes a two camera system. So if you
have, in this case, three hundred and sixty degree visibility
[00:15:00] around you. In something that's considered to be one
of the most dangerous pieces of equipment in the telehandler, and
it's considered that because it has very limited visibility, as
you know, well, lots of blind spots similar to a forklift, and
you might be doing your best job to look around, to take your
time to try to listen, but that doesn't mean people around you
are doing the same. And as you know, there are a lot of trucks
and equipment and people moving and your head always needs to be
on a swivel. And so if you don't have the camera system, an
accident can happen because there are those blind spots and you
can't account for what someone else might be doing when they see
that telehandler coming. And so when you have that camera system,
you can have confidence sitting behind the wheel knowing that you
know you're not going to have to slam on the brakes. Or if you
do, at least you'll be prepared and you [00:16:00] may not have
something slide off the front, you know. And so situational
awareness is important. It's not something people think of, but
the thing that I go back to so often is it is a two way street
and you can't always account for the other person, whether that
be you, the operator or the people around you. And so I think for
so many reasons, having that camera system can provide so much
confidence. It can reduce the amount of stress that someone's
maybe putting on their neck to twist their body, to look around
them. And if you have that, the byproduct is hopefully there's
going to be a higher level of efficiency throughout the day in
your productivity.


Peter Koch: [00:16:42] That's a great
description. When I think about situational awareness around
that, I think about it from the perspective of your brain needs
to look at What? What's around me, and that's what the camera
system helps to provide. And then I've got to figure out, so
what? Like, what does it mean to me? So here's all this
information. [00:17:00] And if I'm missing a piece of
information, my so what's incomplete? And then it's the now what
is next, right? So I have to make a decision based on that
information based on how important that information is to me and
what's happening around there. And it's a really great point
around how that camera system can really do a good job at
providing a more clear picture or a more detailed picture around
the what. And then the so what and the now what, is all about
operator training and what the company does to help that operator
be a better, be a better operator, be a more qualitative and a
more productive operator. But you can't do that unless you have
the information and, like you said, tons of blind spots. And if
you're focused on the people around you or the other hazards that
are around you, you might miss something that's in that blind
spot that you're the only way that you're going to see. That is
if you get off the teller hand or look around you, you've got
someone who can back you up or you have a system that allows you
to see 360 degrees [00:18:00] around your machine, which is
pretty sweet.


Chris Burns: [00:18:02] It's the same in golf.
You know you're a golfer. You admitted that and then you're on
the golf course and you're a slicer and you see water on the
right and you're focusing on that while you're over the ball.
What do you think the byproduct of that shot?


Peter Koch: [00:18:16] Oh, it's going in the
water. It's going in the water. Whether I focus on it or not?
I'll tell you that, Chris, right now.


Chris Burns: [00:18:21] Yup.


Peter Koch: [00:18:22] That's excellent. So
let's talk a little bit more. And you had said this too, around
the situational awareness, like the traditional methods of
getting someone's attention or understanding that their hazards
around you can just come right into the background they're going
to, they're going to the person that's hearing them is going to
get desensitized to them. So it doesn't become a warning sign
anymore, just becomes noise and you don't really pay a lot of
attention to it. So talk to me about a little bit about how you
set the camera system up. And then maybe can you talk a little
bit about some of the training that you might give the operator
how easy it is it to use a system like [00:19:00] that as an
operator once it gets set up?


Chris Burns: [00:19:03] Yeah. So it typically
takes us about an hour to install a four camera system. It's
pretty easy given we're not doing it in the dead of winter
because as you could imagine, when it's 10 degrees out, we're
snapping drill bits and metals a lot more difficult to drill
into. Not only that, but you know, guys need to take breaks to
keep their fingers warm. But ultimately, it's pretty easy. It's a
couple of wires. It's identifying the best installation point,
and typically it's a higher point on the vehicle or on the asset
that is not likely to be bumped or obstructed with the operator's
visibility. So it's not going to get in the way of the regular
traditional use of the vehicle or the asset. Not only that, but
we want to make sure we also have really good placement of the
monitor on the dashboard or near the steering wheel. These are
indoor outdoor use, so if you have direct sunlight, [00:20:00]
you're going to be able to see them. They're typically anywhere
from seven to nine inches, depending on the amount of space that
we have. So when you're using the piece of equipment, most people
wouldn't even know it has a camera system until they got into the
seat, turned the ignition on was like, Oh, there's a monitor
here. What's that for? So if you didn't know and this is the
beauty of it, you literally turn the vehicle on. The unit will
power itself on automatically, and there's very limited to no
training required. I say limited, meaning it's nice to know how
it works. It's nice to know that, yes, you can make some
adjustments to the screen if need be. But ultimately, if you're
aware that you have it, it's basically just understanding what
does this do for me? What is the purpose of this? Because that is
the first question is why do I have this? Why do I need it? But
ultimately, once we show someone, Hey, this is the, and it's not
so much showing as it is explaining the purpose and why the
company invested in it. And [00:21:00] then people say, Oh, OK.
And then what's really interesting is that if your company has
10, let's say, telehandlers and two of them, your demoing the
camera systems on and you get to try it for a week, you're going
to come back and request that. And I've got a funny story about
that. When we started working with this first construction
equipment and this is how we got into the camera system was, they
said, you know, we'd like to try one, you know, we'll just buy
it, but we want to see what this is all about. So we installed
one and they said, Hey, this is really cool. We had some great
feedback on it. Can you come back and install a few more? Yeah,
sure. Why not? So a month and a half later, we had four camera
systems out on the telehandlers. And what happened was we got a
phone call and the guy said, Hey, we need a few more. Yeah, no
problem. Happy to do that. And I said, Can you tell me about how
it's going? We'd love to get some feedback. And he said, Well, at
first the guys were saying, [00:22:00] well, why would we do
that? You know, we haven't had any accidents. And it's like, OK,
you might not have. The company has seen some accidents and, you
know, had some, some misfortunes there, but we don't need that.
And so, OK, we'll just give it a try. We'd want to know your
feedback. And if you don't like it, we can take it out. Not a big
deal. So it got used and there were a couple of contractors who
said, Hey, on our next job, can we get those telehandlers with
the cameras? And they said, Yeah, sure, why? And he said, you
wouldn't believe the productivity we had on the job site and
feedback from some of our employees was, I feel so much more
confident operating when I have a large heavy load on this,
especially when I'm approaching a building. You can imagine the
amount of weight some of these carry, and because of that
efficiency, we are working faster. We are on schedule and as you
can imagine, [00:23:00] being on schedule is like being ahead of
schedule in this industry, especially now. And, you know, we want
all of them that have the camera systems. We know you only have
four and they said, Oh, OK, that's well, that's interesting.
Let's get four more. So they got four more. And it repeats same
thing. And next thing, you know, they said, Well, you know, we
want we want to get 50 of them, then fast forward a year later,
they ordered one hundred and fifty camera systems. But that's not
even the best part of the story. The best part of the story was,
and this happened recently. You know what? Our company has seen
such a great improvement of efficiency and a reduction in
accidents that we're going to make it mandatory for all of our
subcontractors to use your camera systems. So we don't want them
going out and doing it somewhere else. We want them to use your
company and your technology. And that was a very proud moment for
me because, you know, it wasn't that, yeah, we've succeeded and
we're making more [00:24:00] money. It was. We are really making
an impact with these companies. And I hate to say this, but we're
potentially saving lives and we are helping companies save money.
And it feels really good going to sleep at night knowing your
company is really making an impact with very large companies in
your area. And so it's something we're very proud of and it's
been fun because the feedback has been nothing but great. And as
you can imagine, when you work on construction sites, there are a
lot of people who have been with the company for 20 years, 30
years, and they can be a little more resistant to technology.
You're laughing. I can see you laughing over there because, you
know, it's true. So we've seen some pushback. But if they say, if
the company explains it and says, hey, this is why we're doing
it, it has nothing to do with you personally. But if we can
elevate our safety and our efficiency, here's what we're going to
do. And again, I don't want to get ahead of the conversation, but
when they're transparent like that, usually [00:25:00] their
employees will say, OK, we'll give it a shot.


Peter Koch: [00:25:03] So that I think that
story really speaks to the quality of the service and the product
that you guys are putting out there and that you're delivering,
that says a lot about the company that you're able to not only
make an impact with the product just because of the way it
impacts the companies that you are providing it to or selling it
to. But it says a lot to the service that you're providing. I
think those go hand in hand. You can have a phenomenal product,
but you might not have the best service or the best install or
the best people on the ground. I think that does say a lot about
your company overall. Those two things have to go hand in hand.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be as successful as you are even just
getting off the ground. So hopefully this will this will continue
to go. One of the parts there I think it's pretty essential for
any product or any investment that a company does is what's the
return on investment. Even when we were talking about the
internally at our company, we're talking about the podcast
[00:26:00] that I'm doing here, about safety, what's the return
on investment? If I'm going to be spending a few hours a week,
spending time researching and writing and talking to different
guests and then recording and then producing and then finally
getting the product out there, what's the return on investment?
So we had a long conversation about what that would be just about
the podcast. So can you talk a little bit more about the return
on investment for a camera system if there's a company
considering, like, what can I do? What are the what are the
talking points around return on investment that you might give a
potential customer? Or if you're just having a conversation with
somebody on the golf course or in the grocery store about, Hey,
talk to me about this camera system, how is it going to benefit
my company? What are the what are the key points?


Chris Burns: [00:26:44] Yeah, so, you know,
whatever I'm talking to people, I try to stay away from the sales
pitch because, you know, I never want to feel like I'm selling
somebody, but I tend to go to the stories and I've got one here.
I'll share with you in a minute. But when people ask the question
specifically [00:27:00] about ROI, I like to kind of give them
some high level talking points or even just bullet points of
where and how could my company see this benefit or return on
investment short term, long term? And there are a couple of
things that some are measurable, some are not, and there are some
companies that have different ways of measuring their return on
investment. And this is something that, like the construction
company didn't see happening, but was employee satisfaction. Now,
I can't personally put a return on investment on employee
satisfaction, but I know that if they have quality assets that
they enjoy operating and they're more effective and efficient
when using as a byproduct of having the camera system, you know,
that says a lot, and I think there is really tremendous value. If
you have a large company that has 50 forklifts or one hundred and
fifty telehandlers, I think and this is very broad, but you have
enhanced safety. [00:28:00] So you have assurance knowing that
your people and both your assets are safer are protected. And a
lot of times if you have, let's say, a years or more worth of
usage of this technology, you might be able to go back to your
insurance company and negotiate your premium. So if you can point
to the fact that we have fewer incidents, we have greater
productivity. Some agencies and your business, you probably know
a lot more about this than I do. Are willing to do that. And
companies, businesses, I should say, are unaware that in some
instances they can negotiate their premium. This is what I've
been told. I am not the insurance expert, so don't hold me to
that. And there's also, obviously, you know, we talked about
shrinkage, loss, loss prevention, and that is where we have the
story. A good friend of mine is in the warehousing and logistics
industry. He owns several warehouses and a trucking company. And
in his [00:29:00] warehouses, each one of them are at least a
half dozen forklifts. And I was talking to him over golf one day
and lunch. He said, You know, I'm just I've been really stressed
out lately. You've had a couple accidents in the warehouse. And I
said, What could possibly go wrong? It's not like you have a team
of 50 people. You got literally about six to 10 people in each
facility. And he said, well, the other day, somebody was just
getting really comfortable and careless and they were coming
around the corner way too fast with a large load and they went
right through a wall. I said what? He said, Yeah, you know, the
downside is it's 20 grand to the upside, as it could have been a
lot worse. I could have someone who could have been critically
injured. But he said, ultimately, here's the deal. It's going to
cost me 20 grand to fix it. I've got a forklift that's out for
about a week or sooner. And then I've also got a pallet worth of
product that I'm going to have to reimburse my client for. So,
OK, let's talk, he said, so I [00:30:00] have basically I've lost
productivity because I had two to three other employees who had
to come over and help this employee out, clean up the mess. And
so I had three people out of my six, which is half my staff not
working for about two hours. Wow, that does not sound fun. I
would imagine, you know, the stress that that would cause on the
management team, just knowing that we had an accident.
Thankfully, everybody is OK and everything can be fixed, he said.
Yeah. The direct cost of the wall alone and the forklift is about
twenty five thousand. Ok? He said. For us, it's not a big deal,
but that money's got to come from somewhere. And he said, you
know, it's at the time this was late September. He's like, that
could be coming out of holiday bonuses that could be coming out
of the Christmas party, said it. Yeah, we're very highly
successful and profitable, but that's I don't have a money tree
in the backyard and I said, Yeah, he said, But if you [00:31:00]
add it up, we have the direct costs of the forklift and of the
wall. He said we also have the indirect costs of the downtime,
the loss of products. Unhappy client inefficiency. Forklifts out
for a week. He said All in all, I could be, you know, if you
count insurance in there too and my insurance goes up, he said, I
could be looking at thirty, thirty-five thousand, forty thousand
and there are other variables in here too. Like, was the
individual injured? Was he hurt? We got worker's comp problems.
And so the story goes on and on, and you can imagine this is a
small incident as compared to some that are much bigger,
unfortunately. And so when I have these stories, it's like, Wow,
OK, I thought it was 20. But then you look at your balance sheet
at the end of the year and you say, Wow, that really, that really
put a ding in our bottom line. And so that's where we talk about
ROI. And I don't care how effective, how high your safety
standards are. Again, [00:32:00] this goes back to situational
awareness with we may have some of the most experienced, highly
trained forklift or telehandler operators, but that doesn't mean
that the people around them have situational awareness. And if
they don't, if they've became, let's say, immune to those beeping
noises, the beacons, then we have we could have an incident and
nobody wants that. And it can cause a lot of pains in a company.
So I think we talk about ROI. That is something that companies
say, you know, we're willing to invest in that because I keep
going back to the efficiency you have higher and enhanced our
employee confidence when they're operating. And we truly feel
that we can eliminate the majority of accidents that happen with
a camera system. And if an operator sees it two seconds sooner,
they can typically stop and they can prevent that. I think a lot
of times the beacons, the safety warning lights, the backup
beepers, [00:33:00] these things are great for the people around
them. But you know, the operator needs to have complete
situational awareness. And like I said, it's a two way street.
And if we can enhance that for both the people around you and the
operator, we're really going to be singing the efficiency song
here.


Peter Koch: [00:33:18] Let's take a quick break.
Did you know that MEMIC offers online instructor led OSHA 10 hour
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class is a two day video conference training that provides
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industry fields and are authorized by [00:34:00] the OSHA
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register today at www.MEMIC.com/WorkplaceSafety Not a MEMIC
policyholder yet will reach out to your independent insurance
agent and ask about us or go to www.MEMIC.com to learn more. Now,
let's get back to today's episode.


Peter Koch: [00:34:30] Yeah, that's great, and
you're really speaking my language now when we're talking about
indirect and direct costs, and we speak about that often with our
companies when we talk about safety specifically because, you
know, you get somebody who's injured and you see those direct
costs, the medical costs of the injury, or if there's lost time
involved, it's X amount. Well, when you start to track the
indirect costs and a lot of the indirect costs are the same as
what you described with a telehandler incident. You're going to
have a loss of property, [00:35:00] you're going to have to
repair something. You might have a loss of productivity. Then you
get back into the worker's comp side of things with an injury and
you're going to have to train somebody else to come in. You got
to replace that particular individual and just think about all
the time that it takes to train a good telehandler. Someone who's
really good and really productive with that tool takes time to
produce that if they roll it over and they come out of the seat
and they're injured, it's a substantial, indirect cost to train
somebody anew. So that return on investment like you're talking
about, they're increasing situational awareness. Given the
individual more information to make good decisions about the
environment that's around them is a key part, and you might not
be able to quantify those indirect costs so well. Sometimes you
can. Sometimes it's really specific. Sometimes it might be a
little more difficult, but you think about all the things that
come into managing an incident that [00:36:00] happens with the
telehandler, whether it's an injury or whether it's a loss of
property or product. Statistically, when they talk about indirect
costs, there are anywhere between three and 10 times the amount
of the direct costs when you add it all up together, and those
are the hidden things that you don't normally see. So right on
talking about indirect and direct for return on investment, that
was, that's a good key point. I hope people take away from this
today.


Chris Burns: [00:36:26] Yeah. You know, you're
right, this happened to be a situation that thankfully was not as
serious as some. And so it happens to be something that hits home
with a lot of small businesses that are your two million, 10
million, 15 million dollar companies could be catastrophic for
some. And if we can prevent that, you can save yourself a lot of
stress, a lot of time and a lot of money.


Peter Koch: [00:36:49] Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So we've talked a lot about the benefits of the
camera system, and I'm going to throw this out there because
sometimes there's a downside to it. But [00:37:00] do you see any
downside to having the camera system in the telehandler? Or have
you have you seen any of that yet or have you had any reports of
downsides to it?


Chris Burns: [00:37:10] You know, I haven't had
any reports of there being downside, but as anything, I could
sell it as being one of the greatest pieces of technology for any
kind of construction company or warehousing company, whatever it
might be. But a couple of things that come up in conversation is,
you know, I'm fearful that our employees might be too dependent
on it. So it's just like a backup camera in your vehicle. I drive
a large SUV and I'm in a neighborhood with a lot of young
children like my own, and I have had the tendency of backing up
out of my driveway looking only at the camera. But yes, we have
that camera. We have an expensive vehicle that is not better than
your situation awareness. So if you pair the camera with your
ability to turn your head left, turn your head right back
[00:38:00] up slowly. So if there are people passing in a blind
spot, you can see them. Then you have full awareness, but you
can't be one hundred percent reliant on that, meaning you can't
watch it the whole time because having your head on a swivel is
just as beneficial as having the camera. So there is that
downside. Some people see the initial investment in camera
systems as having a downside, whereas you know, how long is it
going to take for this thing to pay for itself? But once you see
the opportunity, like the construction equipment story, I think
you'll find that, yeah, we'll see a return on investment,
potentially within the first couple of weeks. But beyond that,
not really. It requires very little training, very little
communication. But as anything, if you want your employees and
your company to embrace it, it does require some communication.
Sending a note out an email to your staff saying, Look, we've
decided to make an investment in safety technology. Here's what
we're doing. Here's the company we're working with, and here's
[00:39:00] why. And here's how it's going to benefit us. And if
they say, Oh, well, that's  great. We're all for this. We'll
give this an opportunity and you allow your employees to provide
feedback on it, they're going to see that it is a great thing for
them. If anything, it's only a benefit. So, you know, beyond
that, I don't see a whole lot of downside. A lot of times there
are big companies who have concern is, you know, we have one
hundred assets. How are we going to install this? And I explain,
look it's pretty simple. We'll go out at night or on a weekend if
we need to get it installed because we don't want your fleet to
be either off the road or off the job site. We want to keep your,
your company and your assets working as much as possible. We
don't want to interfere with that. So we do the installation
after hours, if need be. And so, you know, when I throw that into
the mix, they say, you know, there's really not a whole lot of
downside because for us to install one hundred systems could take
us a week and nobody wants assets [00:40:00] unavailable for that
amount of time.


Peter Koch: [00:40:02] Yeah, very cool. I
connected really well with that. The first downside that you said
about someone being reliant on the camera or becoming reliant on
the camera system, we're going through the second round of
teaching daughters how to drive. Right. So our 18 year old just
got just got a car. She learned to drive on our vehicles,
obviously, and we had a backup camera in our vehicle, and she
became fairly reliant on using that backup camera. When she got
her car, you know, she's 18 years old, not making a ton of money.
She's not getting a really expensive car, no backup camera. So
the first time she got in the car, she's looking at the dashboard
backing up and I'm like, Hey, wait a second, there's mirrors that
you have to use. You got to turn your head around. You can't.
What are you looking at? You're just looking at the dial on the
radio. That's not going to help you get good situational
awareness. She's like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And to [00:41:00]
this day, she's had it for about a month now, and to this day,
she's really been, she laments not having that backup camera, but
she's learned really well to pay more attention, especially when
she's in that, in her vehicle backing up. So it begs the
question, maybe, you know, as you think about that being a
potential challenge for employers, what might be a solution like,
I'm just some thinking about different training possibilities for
the operators so that they are using the camera system not as
their only piece of information about situational awareness, but
an enhancement for situational awareness. So do you have any
input about what companies are doing or could do to enhance or to
help their operators use it as an enhancement, rather than the
only part of situational awareness that they rely on?


Chris Burns: [00:41:51] Yeah, so I think a
couple of things there is one, if a company is going to make an
investment, I think explaining why they're making the investment
is [00:42:00] important and it doesn't come down to. We're doing
it because of a specific employee. We're doing it to increase the
safety because we care about our staff. We care about the health
and safety of our people. More importantly, and then number two,
we want to build efficiency. If we can be more efficient, we can
get more done. We can be ultimately more profitable. And if we're
more profitable, we can then reinvest into improved technology,
improved equipment, potentially bonuses. And if you have that
communication and say, OK, we're going to invest, but we're also
going to train you and this is something we'll be working on in
twenty twenty two is some video production that goes through.
Here's what the equipment is. Here's where your cameras are
understanding where they are and how the system works, how easy
it is. Basically, turn the key, turn the vehicle or the asset on
it powers on itself. And then how could you utilize this
[00:43:00] to better operate? So again, employees need to know
that as much as we don't think we need to explain things we do
when you're making a big investment. Yeah, I have this. This is
great. I can just look at the camera or computer screen. Well,
no, you can't. It's there to supplement what you do and provide a
value, because if you are a new operator to a forklift or
relatively new to a telehandler, you know that there are a lot of
blind spots, and these accidents typically happen less with the
experienced operators and more with the newer operators. And so
if you can say, you know, when you're in a warehouse, watch out
for this. When you're on a job site, watch out for X and giving
people an opportunity to say, OK, well, what if I'm in a
construction site? What if I've got other telehandlers? What if
this and its situations, but also teaching what is situational
awareness and how can I improve my [00:44:00] situational
awareness? So as I mentioned before, we think, Oh great, we're
the operator. We know where everything is. We're clear. Well, not
necessarily. And so it kind of goes back to your point earlier
about you have some daughters going through driver's training. A
lot of times we can teach the operator to be as safe and aware as
possible, but that doesn't mean a dog won't run out on the road
or a kid won't run out on the road. Or, God forbid, an accident
happens in front of you. And if you don't have complete awareness
or you're not paying complete attention, you could get caught and
it may not be one hundred percent your fault. So just teaching
the operator how they can best utilize that and what to look out
for in the future. Now, some of these things will come in their
training when they go through driver training or forklift
training, whatever it might be, but continued education as to how
to best utilize the technology. And as I mentioned, we're hopeful
that we can get into that in 2022 And [00:45:00] beyond.


Peter Koch: [00:45:00] Yeah, that's really cool
and a good recommendation that communication getting people to
understand how this tool can enhance your own personal
situational awareness and that as a new operator or a new driver,
you know, your situational awareness is relatively small because
you don't have the experience to draw on for that, and this tool
can be used to enhance that. But it's not the only, it's not the
end all, be all of your situational awareness or the only tool
that you should be using to make decisions. So really, really
good points in there and good luck with putting that training
together. I think that's a great opportunity for employers and
companies to take advantage of that, because any time that you
get to have the expert come in and teach you a little bit more
about how to use the tool more effectively is invaluable. So
hopefully that'll work well for you guys.


Chris Burns: [00:45:51] Yeah, thank you.


Peter Koch: [00:45:52] So a couple more
questions here before we get to the end of the podcast and as
you, you know, as you see [00:46:00] this like this is it's not a
brand new technology, but it's certainly something that you are
making work in a really good way. What are some other
applications? What are some other vehicles that you might see
this system be good for? So we've talked about telehandlers and
maybe forklifts, but where else do you see this system being
installed that could be a benefit to other employers?


Chris Burns: [00:46:23] Yeah, that's a good
question. It can start with something as simple as a box truck.
You know, we started with backup cameras as a supplement to our
GPS, and the big application was box trucks. People say, Hey, you
know, I've got a box truck it's 10 years old. Obviously, there's
very limited visibility, and in some cases, your mirrors may not
be as wide enough as you'd like them to be. And your rearview
mirror you may as well not have one because you can't see out the
back, right? And having one or two cameras in the back of a box
truck can give you great visibility when you're backing up.
[00:47:00] And there might be instances where you know you might
just have the vehicle in reverse to see if anyone's coming your
way. You can turn the cameras on without having the vehicle in
reverse, which is nice in this situation. But we've seen cranes.
We've seen a wide variety of construction equipment because we
talk about the telehandler a lot, because it's considered the
most dangerous piece of equipment by many in the industry. You
don't see as many forklifts in the construction field, but you
will see them in a lot of warehouses and a lot of other places.
And so, you know, those are the big ones, but construction box
trucks? We've done some semis and semi trailers. We've even done
some on the backs of pickup trucks. If you're often hauling
trailers or pulling trailers, especially large, boxy trailers,
it's nice to have that visibility. So you can see maybe how close
you are if there's other people. Typically, when you're driving a
truck, you have an employee or a colleague with you. So making
sure if that person [00:48:00] is not in the cab with you, you
can see where people are and see your surroundings. We've
installed cameras on cars just about everything. It's becoming
more and more popular as safety continues to grow and companies
look at how can I save money? How can I build more efficiencies?
How can I be profitable? But the number one talking point is how
do I keep my people safe? Because as you can imagine, it's hard
to find good people right now. It's hard to hire good people, and
the onboarding could take days to weeks to months. And so if you
have an employee out, you know that could be that could set you
back. And so companies are starting to say, I want to invest in
safety and they're excited to invest in safety because they're
seeing that. Yeah, there could be a huge return on investment.


Peter Koch: [00:48:54] Nice. When you were
talking, this just clicked for me. So most of my experience in
industry [00:49:00] has been within the ski industry. I've worked
for a number of different ski areas, done all sorts of different
work with them. And when you're talking about the big box truck
having to see behind, whether you're in reverse or not, I'm
thinking of groomers, right? So one of the biggest injuries that
we find and you had referenced this before, and I really didn't
tag on to it until right now. But with the 360 backup camera, you
really prevent a lot of neck and shoulder strain. And if I think
about the groomer in my experience with a groomer or actually the
groomers and some of the really nice new brand new technology
groomers that are out there, you spend a lot of time looking back
over your shoulder through that big window trying to see what the
tiller is doing and to make sure that that's leaving the path
that you want. So any time that you have to be looking behind
you, it seems that might be a good application for this
particular camera system.


Chris Burns: [00:49:54] You're right, but the
physical strain is something that's also very true with forklifts
telehandlers, construction equipment, [00:50:00] even box trucks,
because you're often doing this. People do rely on mirrors, but
they also rely on their physical awareness, their eyes as well.
And so we've seen that I don't use that as much as a selling
point because it doesn't sound as believable. But as someone
who's been in the industry like yourself, who's operated this
type of equipment, you'll start to recognize that, yeah, that is
a pretty fantastic benefit. And that's where the employee
satisfaction comes in. Where I mentioned the construction
company, they started requesting it well, it's a lot easier for
me to operate. Some of these guys are working, guys and gals,
working 10 hour days doing this, you know, twisting their neck in
their body that can get old after a couple of days or a couple of
weeks. And so, yeah, I think there's great benefit. You mentioned
other applications. We recently installed some camera systems on
party buses because as you kind of mentioned, not a lot of
visibility, a lot of obstructions there, in addition to
[00:51:00] the people on the bus.


Peter Koch: [00:51:01] Yeah. And interesting
application. I would not have thought about that, but it makes
total sense. So we're getting right to the bus at the end of the
podcast here. If some of our listeners want to find out more
about camera systems in Midwest fleet and safety specifically,
where would they go look Chris? Where would they look to find
more information?


Chris Burns: [00:51:22] Yeah, I'm glad you
mentioned that one of the best places to find us is online on our
website, which is Midwestfleetandsafety.com. You can also connect
with us. We're on Facebook and LinkedIn at Midwest fleet and
safety. Otherwise, you can feel free to email me personally. It's
Chris@midwestfleetandsafety.Com You can give me a phone call
920-205-9644 and whether you just want to chat about fleet and
safety stuff, certainly open book, we'd love to have those
conversations. If you have questions, you want to pick our brain
and just kind of know, Hey, what's going on? I want to talk
[00:52:00] to you more about this or that. We're certainly open
to it. We're pretty relaxed casual company. We really just enjoy
helping people and educating people. And if it results in
business, great. If not, that's OK, too. But we're a young small
company. We're trying to grow and forge relationships. So if
you're interested in connecting with us, please do so. And I hope
everyone enjoyed listening to the episode today.


Peter Koch: [00:52:21] Well, I know I did. I
really appreciate this conversation. I always take something away
from the conversation that I have with one of the guests. So
thanks today and kind of that connection between the camera
systems, situational awareness, reduction of injury, reduction of
not just the struck by injuries, but one of the injuries that the
National Safety Council didn't put in there is that soft tissue
injury, which I think more and more our, you know, our workforce,
especially here in Maine. I don't know about how it is about by
you, but our workforce isn't getting any younger. So that little
personal satisfaction, the employee satisfaction of having a tool
that allows them to work more [00:53:00] productively, longer and
just longer in their lifetime is a good tool and a take away from
me. Thanks for that.


Chris Burns: [00:53:08] Yeah, you're welcome.
And you know, when it comes down to it, Peter and I don't want
this to be a sales pitch, but companies can invest in this
technology. If you're talking about telehandler, one forklift for
less than a thousand dollars in most cases. So think about the
return on investment you could possibly see by spending a
thousand dollars.


Peter Koch: [00:53:28] Yeah, it's not. It's
almost a no brainer when it comes down to it, but you got to be
in the right mindset for it. You got to understand it, and
sometimes you have to have a reason for it. So as you know, as
our listeners out there are thinking about, so where have our
incidents been? Do we have telehandlers? Have we had productivity
issues? Have we had or do we see an opportunity where we want to
increase productivity? Have we had incidents or accidents? This
might be the time for you to think about what technology can you
use to try to eliminate some of those or increase your
productivity, your quality [00:54:00] and your safety? So again,
thank you for that.


Chris Burns: [00:54:04] Thank you for having me.
There's one last thing I want to say.


Peter Koch: [00:54:07] Sure.


Chris Burns: [00:54:07] A lot of times what I'm
talking to people like yourself or potential clients and say, You
know, what advice would you give a company who's considering
this? And I hate to say this, but people say, I should say it
more. And so I'll say it to you. But if you're thinking about it,
invest because you want to, not because you have to. And I say
that is that the majority of our clients are doing it because
they've previously had a serious accident or incident and they
don't want it to happen again. And they say this, I swear to god,
every single time, is if we only would have done this sooner. And
I don't like hearing that because, you know, I don't want anyone
I do business with to have had gone through something terrible
like that, whether it be a simple twenty thousand dollar wall
that they need to fix or something far more catastrophic. And so
[00:55:00] do it because you want to prevent injuries and
accidents, not because you have to do it.


Peter Koch: [00:55:06] Yeah, that's really,
really good advice. Invest because you want to, not because you
have to. I think that's great and maybe a key takeaway for a lot
of folks out there thinking about how can I invest in some
technology that's going to make me better? And if you want to be
better, here's an opportunity that might take you to the next
level. So perfect for that. Thanks again, Chris, for coming on
the podcast. This time, I appreciate talking with you.


Chris Burns: [00:55:29] Peter you rock. It's
been a lot of fun, as always, and hopefully we get to do this
again soon.


Peter Koch: [00:55:32] Yeah, I think we will.
We'll have to connect again sometime. And I appreciate you being
there and good luck with your company and we'll catch up again in
the future, I guess.


Chris Burns: [00:55:41] Good. I look forward to
podcast episodes right on.


Peter Koch: [00:55:44] Thanks again, Chris, for
joining us and to all of our listeners out there today on the
MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, we've been speaking about how
camera systems can enhance situational awareness with Chris
Burns, co-founder of Midwest Fleet and Safety. The MEMIC Safety
Experts podcast [00:56:00] is written, hosted and produced by me,
Peter Koch. If you have any questions about camera systems or
situational awareness, or would like to hear more about a
particular topic on our podcast. Email me at Podcast@MEMIC.com.
Also, check out our show notes at MEMIC.com/podcast, where you
can find additional resources, as well as our entire podcast
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[00:57:00] is good, but using what you learned here is even
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