My guest today is Tania de Jong, co-founder of
Mind Medicine Australia. Tania and her husband, Peter, helped
lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in
the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for
psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they
helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn
from it.
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Timestamps
[00:00:00] Intro from Tim.
[00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life.
[00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to
integrate it.
[00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind
Medicine Australia.
[00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger
application.
[00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training
clinicians.
[00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way
into the room.
[00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an
extraordinary LSD story.
[00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating
story—to the regulators.
[00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling
breakthrough.
[00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients.
[00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.
[00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition,
and exercise.
[00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.
[00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and
philanthropists on board.
[01:00:44] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of
control.
[01:09:06] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.
[01:11:07] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.
[01:13:27] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience
advocacy requires.
[01:22:43] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.
[01:24:56] Getting through to regulators and pushing for
end-of-life access.
[01:27:32] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.
[01:30:43] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the
bill.
[01:34:12] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more
affordable?
[01:37:51] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”
[01:42:19] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.
[01:46:51] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?
[01:48:10] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try
another door.
[01:53:27] Supporting patients and training the next wave of
clinicians.
[01:56:56] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking
each other home.
[02:00:40] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and
simply asking for help.
Timeline:
February 2, 2015: Michael Pollan publishes
“The Trip Treatment” in The New Yorker, which is the article
Tania credits with setting her journey in motion.
March 21, 2015: Tim releases his James Fadiman
interview, “The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide” (#66). Its show
notes link to “The Trip Treatment.”
January 15, 2016: In 5-Bullet Friday, Tim
announces support for Johns Hopkins’ psilocybin research and a
personal commitment of at least $100,000 toward psychedelic
research that year.
2016: Tania and Peter travel to the
Netherlands for their first guided psilocybin experience.
(Source)
2017–2019: UCSF conducts the
psilocybin-assisted group-therapy study involving long-term
AIDS survivors that Tim helped support. (Source)
May 6, 2018: Michael Pollan joins Tim for
“Exploring the New Science of Psychedelics” (#313), discussing
his forthcoming book (How to Change Your Mind).
May 15, 2018: Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind
is published.
February 13, 2019: Tania and Peter publicly
launch Mind Medicine Australia. (Source)
2020–2022: MMA applies to reschedule MDMA and
psilocybin, faces rejection, and submits new applications in
March 2022. (Source)
November 21, 2022: David Nutt presents to
Australia’s medicines regulator, the TGA, supporting the case
for therapeutic access. (Source)
February 3, 2023: The TGA announces restricted
prescribing access to MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for
treatment-resistant depression, effective July 1,
2023. (Source)
January 2024: Patients begin receiving
treatment under the new prescribing program. (Source)
*
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