Startseite
Podcasts
Your Undivided Attention Podcast
What Would It Take to Actually Trust Each Other? The Game Theory Dilemma

What Would It Take to Actually Trust Each Other? The Game Theory Dilemma

Your Undivided Attention vor 7 Monaten

Game theory makes the world feel cold and strategic: if I don't race to win, they will. But this logic isn't inevitable — it's invented. Professor S.M. Amadae on the game theory dilemma, how it colonized everything from nukes to AI, and how we escape by r

0:00

45:28

So much of our world today can be summed up in the cold logic of
“if I don’t, they will.” This is the foundation of game theory,
which holds that cooperation and virtue are irrational; that all
that matters is the race to make the most money, gain the most
power, and play the winning hand.

This way of thinking can feel inescapable, like a fundamental law
of human nature. But our guest today argues that it doesn’t have
to be this way. That the logic of game theory is a human
invention, a way of thinking that we’ve learned — and that we can
unlearn by daring to trust each other again. It’s critical that
we do, because AI is the ultimate agent of game theory and once
it’s fully entangled we might be permanently stuck in the game
theory world.

In this episode, Tristan and Aza explore the game theory dilemma
— the idea that if I adopt game theory logic and you don’t,
you lose — with Dr. S.M. Amadae, a professor of Political Science
at the University of Helsinki. She's also the director at the
Center for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of
Cambridge and the author of “Prisoners of Reason: Game Theory and
the Neoliberal Economy.”

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

“Prisoners of Reason: Game Theory and the Neoliberal Economy” by
S.M. Amadae (2015)

The Cambridge Centre for the Study of Existential Risk

“Theory of Games and Economic Behavior” by John von Neumann and
Oskar Morgenstern (1944)

Further reading on the importance of trust in Finland

Further reading on Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

RAND’s 2024 Report on Strategic Competition in the Age of AI

Further reading on Marshall Rosenberg and nonviolent
communication

The study on self/other overlap and AI alignment cited by Aza

Further reading on The Day After (1983)

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

America and China Are Racing to Different AI Futures

The Crisis That United Humanity—and Why It Matters for AI

Laughing at Power: A Troublemaker’s Guide to Changing Tech

The Race to Cooperation with David Sloan Wilson

Clarifications:

The proposal for a federal preemption on AI was enacted by
President Trump on December 11, 2025, shortly after this
recording.

Aza said that "The Day After" was the most watched TV event
in history when it aired. It was actually the most watched TV
film, the most watched TV event was the finale of MASH

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for
information about our collection and use of personal data for
advertising.