#583: Susan Cain on Transforming Pain, Building Your Emotional Resilience, Exploring Sufi Wisdom, Tapping into Bittersweet Songs, and Seeking the Shards of Light

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Susan Cain (@susancain) is the author
of Quiet Journal: Discover Your Secret Strengths and Unleash
Your Inner Power, Quiet Power: The Secret Strengths of
Introverts, and Quiet: The Power of Introverts in A
World That Can’t Stop Talking, the latter of which spent eight
years on the New York Times Best Sellers list and has
been translated into 40 languages.


Susan’s first record-smashing TED Talk has been viewed
more than 40 million times and was named by Bill Gates as one of
his all-time favorite talks (and if you like that one, you
should check out her most recent TED Talk with
violinist Min Kym). LinkedIn named her the top sixth influencer
in the world, just behind Richard Branson and Melinda Gates.
Susan partners with Malcolm Gladwell, Adam Grant, and Dan Pink to
curate the Next Big Idea Club. They donate all of their
proceeds to children’s literacy programs.


Her new book is Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing
Make Us Whole.


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Conversation around a book titled Bittersweet should always begin
with dark chocolate. [06:00]


How did Susan arrive at the thesis for Bittersweet, and what did
she learn about bittersweetness as a timeless human tradition?
[06:52]


Where can someone curious about bittersweet music taste a sample
of Susan’s favorites? [11:46]


Parallel wisdom for people of faith, hardcore atheists, and
everyone in between from two of bittersweet art’s heaviest
hitters: Leonard Cohen and Rumi. [12:14]


Why does minor key music often invoke melancholy? [16:31]


“Days of honey, days of onions.” Psychology may not (yet)
distinguish between melancholy and depression, but wisdom
traditions have known the difference for thousands of years.
[20:04]


For those of us who closely associate depression and melancholy,
what’s the value in seeking out the latter when we try so hard to
avoid the former? [23:28]


Where Sufism fits in to Susan’s exploration of bittersweetness
and search for a language of longing. [29:35]


Creativity as a byproduct of bittersweetness. [36:00]


Thoughts on the song “Hinach Yafah” by Idan Raichel. [39:08]


How is mono no aware expressed in your part of the world? [44:44]


How can someone begin attuning their senses to the feelings that
feed into bittersweetness? [50:17]


Susan shares the now-framed email the man who would become her
husband sent after their second date. [53:11]


Most of us long for people, places, and things that didn’t make
it through the pandemic. RIP, Doma. [55:50]


An empathy exercise: what captions and subtitles would accompany
the people around you? [56:53]


Can grief be inherited? Here’s what the science says. [1:00:49]


Learning to heal others helps us heal ourselves. [1:10:26]


What’s the unexpected benefit Susan enjoys by immersing herself
in the theses of her books during the lengthy writing process?
[1:13:08]


Favorite quotations from Art Is the Highest Form of Hope, a book
Susan gifted my way a few years ago. [1:14:51]


A point Susan feels some readers of Bittersweet might
underappreciate or misinterpret. [1:16:26]


A brief bask in the warm wisdom of Jana Levin and C.S. Lewis.
[1:18:30]


Susan asks what made me shift gears from being an “I’m going to
teach you to be successful” author to someone in search of ways
to turn pain into beauty. [1:21:54]


Susan’s advice to her 30-year-old-self (and the any-aged rest of
us), moral obligation, coping with life’s crossroads, and other
parting thoughts. [1:37:12]


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